HTOTM: FUSION
You didn't quote anyone and you seem to ramble around aimlessly in a non-direct response to anything post in this thread, so I'll just assume you aren't replying to anything in particular...
I don't quote people because I like to write a coherent text, as everyone should. Toribash discussion is the only place I ever saw that made a habit of commenting on each line of someone. It's rather awkward and I don't like it at all.
Originally Posted by Redundant View Post
People are able to argue that they were drunk when they did bad things because it is the truth. Why would you not want people to use the truth in a court?
Surely that does not mean that being drunk is an excuse to do bad things. It just means that their rationality was unable to function properly in that situation.
If being drunk cannot be used to evaluate how bad a crime is, then what can? Anger? Ice cold development of a strategy to harm someone? Not only the result of an action matters in a courtroom. How those actions came to be matters as well. It is a great difference if someone kills his wife during a fight or plans the murder for several weeks and executes it with a calm mind. Intoxication is also a factor that needs to be taken into consideration unless you think that being willfully ignorant is a good thing.

Premeditated murder is obviously not the same as manslaughter.

Using intoxication as an excuse and claiming that this made the situation out of your control is unacceptable.

I believe I already said that people should be held accountable to their actions.
Originally Posted by Redundant View Post
We could declare that the act of advertising drugs is immoral and proceed to ban pro drug ads. I see no problem with that, seeing as ads tend to be very manipulative and that drugs are viewed upon as negative thing in general. That does not limit a person's personal freedom to choose to do those drugs, nor does it heavily affect the economy. That would be a healthy way of going about this situation.

Unfortunately there are people who do abuse various substances. Whether these people have mental illness or are just addicted is a problem in itself, we should tackle the root cause.
Originally Posted by Redundant View Post
Compared to actual problems we have with drugs, that seems to be a rather minor one.
There are drug related problems that are far greater. Look at South America, for instance. Drug lords vs police.
Drugs are already banned there. The drugs that got prohibited gave those druglords the ability to gain insane amount of moneys by circumventing the laws. Those people have no interest in a change of those laws.
I dare to suggest that prohibiting things that are high in demand is the root of a lot of criminal acts all around the world. Gotta ask yourself what's worse: Legalized junkies or war on the streets. People who want to do illegal drugs can do illegal drugs already. They don't care about them being illegal. It's just insanely unsafe and many people suffer due to that.
Why not provide an environment where those people can do drugs safely in a way that does not endanger people as it does today?
Legalizing it does not mean condoning it, and you still can take measures to prevent people from taking those drugs, as long as those do not interfere with the freedom to choose.

Well, that's not the purpose of laws lol.

The purpose of laws is to define what is and is not acceptable. Murder? Not acceptable. Theft? Not acceptable. Drugs? Not acceptable. I don't want to live in a society filled with substance abusers, and most people don't want to either.

I won't subscribe to your false dicotomy, I choose option 3: I think it's much better to have a society without any substance abusers. Whether it's a case of educating the people who make bad choices, or jailing them is another matter.
Originally Posted by Redundant View Post
We could also get a take on firearms as well, I guess, since this thread seems to be about everything now.
Banning firearms in a country where the general populace believes that the possession of guns is immoral is correct. If it is the consensus and generally agreed upon there is no problem with that.
The problem occurs once you try to ban firearms in a country where guns are an important part of the culture, and people own firearms traditionally as well as for safety reasons.
In those countries banning firearms would be immoral because people have a high demand for them, and taking away their rights to secure their own safety is not a very clever way to deal with a criminal environment. When a person feels the need to protect himself you should examine his situation closely and then form an opinion if his environment is, in fact, dangerous. Declaring right away that those firearms should be taken off the streets no matter what is a very ignorant way of dealing with the situation.
When there is a high demand for firearms there will be firearms, even if there is a ban. The only thing you are going to accomplish is that many more people will become criminal, some people will make a lot of money with being criminal, and in the end you caused more problems than you solved.

This kind of thinking is extremely dangerous. Do people want firearms or do they want safety? They are selfishly sacrificing safety in order to have firearms. To the residence of Sodom, Sodom was a moral place - is this acceptable?

If your society has various problems (substance abuse, or firearm lust) then they will attempt to change the laws to fit their warped worldview. You need to fix the problems with the people first - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Originally Posted by Redundant View Post
Of course that does not mean that firearms should go totally unchecked. There are certain ones that are more dangerous to your own safety than others. A grenade, for instance, has very little value in a street fight. You cannot defend yourself with it. It can only be used offensively. Therefore the access to grenades should be restricted, and I believe that most people all over the world would agree that the access to grenades should be restricted. The primary function of a grenade is causing a lot of destruction, which is a bad thing. So a ban would make sense here.
The primary function of a handgun, however, is not destruction. It's security. So saying that owning a handgun in general is a bad thing would be wrong.

I could write more now, but I am getting lazy and tired.
Go ahead and plow through my reasoning.

Handguns kill FAR more people than grenades.
Last edited by Redundant; Mar 26, 2014 at 07:27 PM.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff