Okay, I personally am serving for the U.S. Army. So here's my standpoint:
I have nothing against transgender people, although being a transgender person in the military (in any branch), can cause some issues.
1.) Urinalysis drug testing is often done once a month. When drug tested, you have an observer of the same sex watch you give your sample. Now, knowing you can "identify" as a female but still not have gone through the actual surgical procedure, means you can be a male, with a penis, identifying as a female, being observed by a female.
2.) Showering in the field: When deployed or in a field training exercise, you will shower with that of the same sex. Scenario: Male identifying as a female, but still hasn't undergone surgical procedures (still has a penis), would be showering with females. Keep in mind, a 3rd shower group for transgenders is called segregation.
3.) PT Tests, or physical fitness tests: These have to be done at least once every 6 months, (at least for the Army). For those that don't know, these tests are scored differently by sex. Females have lower score requirements than males. What if a male identified as a female solely to score a 300 (Max score)? Also: females are exempt from PT tests if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?
4.) Deployment: similar to issue 3, females are undeployable if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?
5.) AR 670-1 (appearance regulation article). This is the article that says males have to shave, have tapered hair cuts, tattoo regulation, etc. For example: Imagine a transgender male, now a female, growing facial hair. Who would tell her to shave her face?
6.) Lodging is separate for males and females when in training. See issue 2.
I have nothing against transgender people, although being a transgender person in the military (in any branch), can cause some issues.
1.) Urinalysis drug testing is often done once a month. When drug tested, you have an observer of the same sex watch you give your sample. Now, knowing you can "identify" as a female but still not have gone through the actual surgical procedure, means you can be a male, with a penis, identifying as a female, being observed by a female.
2.) Showering in the field: When deployed or in a field training exercise, you will shower with that of the same sex. Scenario: Male identifying as a female, but still hasn't undergone surgical procedures (still has a penis), would be showering with females. Keep in mind, a 3rd shower group for transgenders is called segregation.
3.) PT Tests, or physical fitness tests: These have to be done at least once every 6 months, (at least for the Army). For those that don't know, these tests are scored differently by sex. Females have lower score requirements than males. What if a male identified as a female solely to score a 300 (Max score)? Also: females are exempt from PT tests if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?
4.) Deployment: similar to issue 3, females are undeployable if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?
5.) AR 670-1 (appearance regulation article). This is the article that says males have to shave, have tapered hair cuts, tattoo regulation, etc. For example: Imagine a transgender male, now a female, growing facial hair. Who would tell her to shave her face?
6.) Lodging is separate for males and females when in training. See issue 2.
[SIGPIC]:)[/SIGPIC]
These are legitimate concerns however simple measures can be put in place to accommodate for transgender people.
Originally Posted by abxy
1.) Urinalysis drug testing is often done once a month. When drug tested, you have an observer of the same sex watch you give your sample. Now, knowing you can "identify" as a female but still not have gone through the actual surgical procedure, means you can be a male, with a penis, identifying as a female, being observed by a female.
Ask them who they are confident being observed by.
2.) Showering in the field: When deployed or in a field training exercise, you will shower with that of the same sex. Scenario: Male identifying as a female, but still hasn't undergone surgical procedures (still has a penis), would be showering with females. Keep in mind, a 3rd shower group for transgenders is called segregation.
It might be segregation, but transgender bathrooms exist and the LGBT community is actively campaigning for more. If those are becoming a reality, why cant you let transgender people shower together? Or just shower with whatever gender they feel comfortable.
3.) PT Tests, or physical fitness tests: These have to be done at least once every 6 months, (at least for the Army). For those that don't know, these tests are scored differently by sex. Females have lower score requirements than males. What if a male identified as a female solely to score a 300 (Max score)? Also: females are exempt from PT tests if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?
This isn't really an issue. If a transgender male became pregnant then surely they would get the same exemptions, unless of course they didn't want them. As for the scoring, they should choose. If they were born female, but wish to take the harder tests for males, then so be it.
4.) Deployment: similar to issue 3, females are undeployable if pregnant, but what if a transgender female, now a male, got pregnant?
Same answer as 3. They would get the same exemptions, as they too are also pregnant.
5.) AR 670-1 (appearance regulation article). This is the article that says males have to shave, have tapered hair cuts, tattoo regulation, etc. For example: Imagine a transgender male, now a female, growing facial hair. Who would tell her to shave her face?
If they identify as a male, and are in the male section of the army then they should adhere to all the disciplinary procedures like everyone else. I'm sure they will be okay with that.
6.) Lodging is separate for males and females when in training. See issue 2.
Once again, either establish another lodge or allow them to bunk with whatever gender they identify with.
Allowing people to use whatever bathrooms/accommodation/whatever they like according to "what the identify as" which can be lied about can lead to issues. Here are 2 famous recent examples http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/05/transg...mates-6429321/ and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39337805 - I know criminals and the military are 2 very different sets of people, but the point is that problems would very well be able to arise.
Although its obviously unprovable whether they lied it raises questions as to whether people should be allowed to effectively choose what sex of prison they want to be allocated to. In a similar line of thought, being able to choose what bathrooms you use could be an issue as has been shown multiple times in cases such as this https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...voyeurism.html .
On the topic of physical tests, transgender men choosing what tests they want isnt a problem since they have the phsyical attributes and hormones of females since that is their biological sex. The issue is with transgender women, who have the physical attributes of men being tested by easier standards than they should be.
Although its obviously unprovable whether they lied it raises questions as to whether people should be allowed to effectively choose what sex of prison they want to be allocated to. In a similar line of thought, being able to choose what bathrooms you use could be an issue as has been shown multiple times in cases such as this https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...voyeurism.html .
On the topic of physical tests, transgender men choosing what tests they want isnt a problem since they have the phsyical attributes and hormones of females since that is their biological sex. The issue is with transgender women, who have the physical attributes of men being tested by easier standards than they should be.
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Originally Posted by SmallBowl
Allowing people to use whatever bathrooms/accommodation/whatever they like according to "what the identify as" which can be lied about can lead to issues. Here are 2 famous recent examples http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/05/transg...mates-6429321/ and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39337805 - I know criminals and the military are 2 very different sets of people, but the point is that problems would very well be able to arise.
Although its obviously unprovable whether they lied it raises questions as to whether people should be allowed to effectively choose what sex of prison they want to be allocated to. In a similar line of thought, being able to choose what bathrooms you use could be an issue as has been shown multiple times in cases such as this https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...voyeurism.html .
On the topic of physical tests, transgender men choosing what tests they want isnt a problem since they have the phsyical attributes and hormones of females since that is their biological sex. The issue is with transgender women, who have the physical attributes of men being tested by easier standards than they should be.
There are several problems with these arguments.
First, "identifying" as transgender does not make you transgender under the law. You have to be confirmed by a medical professional to identify as transgender, and not just faking it. So the bar to become transgender is stacked against you if you're trying to fake the classification, since a respectable medical professional will shut down your request to be classified as transgender. To classify somebody as transgender willingly with knowledge that they are not transgender is illegal, unethical, grounds to lose your license to practice, and leaves you subject to prosecution.
Second, to make this clear because it seems you don't understand this, transgender is a term about what gender you identify as, not what your biological sex is, or you sexual orientation. Transgenders may undergo gender reassignment, but the degree of which they undergo the treatment is varied. Not all will change their biological sex in the process, and many will not undergo the treatment at all and just cross dress. Some are gay, some are straight, some are bi. Point is, it's not tied to their perceived gender.
Third, you see problems with transgender people who are using their reassignment as an excuse to do things with the other sex, I see a much more common problem that arises where transgender people are mistaken for the opposite sex when they're forced to use facilities for their birth sex. When a transgender woman is forced to enter a men's bathroom, or a transgender man is forced to enter a women's bathroom, there is a LOT of confusion that can arise that will result in harassment of the transgender person. Police are more likely to be called if a person who looks like a male enters a women's bathroom, or a person who looks like a female enters a men's bathroom.
Fourth, it doesn't matter if somebody is transgender and commits a crime, even peeping on women or men in the bathroom. Reason being? It's irrelevant that they're transgender, a crime is a crime regardless of your identification. A regular person who cross dresses can accomplish the exact same level of "concealment" that everyone is worried the transgender label will be used for, and it's easier to accomplish since it doesn't require medical confirmation. It literally makes no sense to be afraid of transgenders using their identification as a gender to commit crimes, because gender is irrelevant when a crime is committed. A male peeking on a female in a bathroom stall is the exact same crime if it's a woman peeking, or a trans person peeking, or if it's a man being peeked on. Being trans is not a get out of jail free card. Prohibiting a trans person from using a bathroom they identify with will not stop people who want to commit this crime from committing it, and allowing them to use the bathroom is not a green light for them to commit a crime.
Finally, why would meeting a lower test standard be a concern? If you're willing to accept a person into the army with lower physical standards to begin with, why is it fine if a woman can only meet the lower standards and still be allowed to serve in the same capacity as a male, yet a transgender woman can't? If that's your concern, then it would make more sense to push for standardized requirements across all genders and either raise the requirements for women to men's, or lower men's to women's.
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Originally Posted by Oracle
There are several problems with these arguments.
First, "identifying" as transgender does not make you transgender under the law. You have to be confirmed by a medical professional to identify as transgender, and not just faking it. So the bar to become transgender is stacked against you if you're trying to fake the classification, since a respectable medical professional will shut down your request to be classified as transgender. To classify somebody as transgender willingly with knowledge that they are not transgender is illegal, unethical, grounds to lose your license to practice, and leaves you subject to prosecution.
And how does the medical professional tell the difference between the 2? Its from what the person tells him, not from telltale physical signs
Second, to make this clear because it seems you don't understand this, transgender is a term about what gender you identify as, not what your biological sex is, or you sexual orientation. Transgenders may undergo gender reassignment, but the degree of which they undergo the treatment is varied. Not all will change their biological sex in the process, and many will not undergo the treatment at all and just cross dress. Some are gay, some are straight, some are bi. Point is, it's not tied to their perceived gender.
I do understand that. I dont see what part of my post this was supposed to refer to
Third, you see problems with transgender people who are using their reassignment as an excuse to do things with the other sex, I see a much more common problem that arises where transgender people are mistaken for the opposite sex when they're forced to use facilities for their birth sex. When a transgender woman is forced to enter a men's bathroom, or a transgender man is forced to enter a women's bathroom, there is a LOT of confusion that can arise that will result in harassment of the transgender person. Police are more likely to be called if a person who looks like a male enters a women's bathroom, or a person who looks like a female enters a men's bathroom.
If the person has undergone gender reassignment surgery and clearly has features of the other sex then I dont have a problem with it. The problem is when with no proof whaysoever anyone can walk into either sex of bathroom as they please. Not all transgender people have undergone gender reassignment surgery.
Fourth, it doesn't matter if somebody is transgender and commits a crime, even peeping on women or men in the bathroom. Reason being? It's irrelevant that they're transgender, a crime is a crime regardless of your identification. A regular person who cross dresses can accomplish the exact same level of "concealment" that everyone is worried the transgender label will be used for, and it's easier to accomplish since it doesn't require medical confirmation. It literally makes no sense to be afraid of transgenders using their identification as a gender to commit crimes, because gender is irrelevant when a crime is committed. A male peeking on a female in a bathroom stall is the exact same crime if it's a woman peeking, or a trans person peeking, or if it's a man being peeked on. Being trans is not a get out of jail free card. Prohibiting a trans person from using a bathroom they identify with will not stop people who want to commit this crime from committing it, and allowing them to use the bathroom is not a green light for them to commit a crime.
Since Im using my phone I cant verify what I said in my last post but I highly doubt I said that transgender people would be commiting the crime. The point is that anyone can enter either bathroom so if he so wanted a male non-transgender peep could go into the womens bathroom
Finally, why would meeting a lower test standard be a concern? If you're willing to accept a person into the army with lower physical standards to begin with, why is it fine if a woman can only meet the lower standards and still be allowed to serve in the same capacity as a male, yet a transgender woman can't? If that's your concern, then it would make more sense to push for standardized requirements across all genders and either raise the requirements for women to men's, or lower men's to women's.
I dont kmow how the tests work or what doing well or badly in the would result in. But if a transgender woman gets a load of benefits because they did really well for a regular woman or a transgender man has sanctions because they couldnt keep up with the other men that doesnt sit right with me. Theyre there for a reason, and whatever that reason may be its important that people are held to the correct standard
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