Yo fair shout on Hive to be honest.
Addicted-re 07-16
24/07/2019. I'll find you again my friend.
"I like to visualise icky in the astral realm fighting off the spambots (alien-robot hybrid species) singlehandedly and trying to scan their brains to find out which evil mastermind is sending them" ~ rola
Originally Posted by mwah
1. they won the first ever clan league, but on top of that they are legends for their influence in that time period in staff positions as you probably know but didn't mention for some reason
Apparently clan league wins don't matter, especially the early ones, as they weren't competitive enough. Don't blame me, blame hax. So that leaves spirit with a legacy of important staff members 'in that time period'. Ok. Inq had multiple heydays where they had many influential smods+ and devs.
How about we just don't discount clan league wins as being important? The first clan league matters (cus it's the first lol) but the second doesn't? Total horseshit.
Originally Posted by mwah
2. no it is/should be judged by how remarkable the clan was objectively as it pertains to this community, the level of impact should be on the same grounds as current legend clans
Ok, so according to you popularity doesn't matter ('objective' remarkableness does). According to hax it does. According to person Z a history of staff members is critical. According to person Y, it's not.
With no actual criteria laid out, it's just everybody's competing opinions. I've made this point about 50 times now. You recognise this, you made the distinction between 'it is'/'should be'. This leads me into my response below;
Originally Posted by mwah
3. i guess you can say these are 'measures' but not the only measures to put into account
You say these measures should be put to account but right above, you just denied popularity as measure. I'm gonna assume that was a mistake (cus including notoriety as a measure and not including popularity is silliness (really though, if anything, we should be including popularity as a measure and discounting notoriety)). Regardless, you've made a point about competing measures.
Inq has similar achievements to spirit (was alive for longer also, but let's discount that for now). How do we weigh these measures that make up 'remarkableness' (we'll use your criteria for the sake of argument)? If a clan league win is worth 10 points, does high notoriety = 5? Does popularity = 5? Does having had a lot of influential staff members =10? Does having legends = 5 (or is legends included in popularity/notoriety)? Are there other measures (is lifespan one) - How much are they worth?
Why don't we try and formalize (using remarkableness as the overarching value) a system for judging legend clans? Then we could actually determine the 'objective remarkableness' of each legend clan and see where Inq lies (and other future clans you might want to add)? Rather than each of us making proclamations based on what we think is important and what we understand about each clan.
Let's do it, where's the harm? All this is is an attempt to establish 'true' objective remarkableness, as opposed to one person's interpretation of it (what measures matter) and weightings (how much does each measure matter).
Last edited by Ele; Jan 5, 2020 at 08:26 AM.
Originally Posted by Ele
Apparently clan league wins don't matter, especially the early ones, as they weren't competitive enough. Don't blame me, blame hax. So that leaves spirit with a legacy of important staff members 'in that time period'. Ok. Inq had multiple heydays where they had many influential smods+ and devs.
I would agree 1 single one in 10 years of being active doesn't matter. but the first ever deserves a shout but it is not the single reason spirit is a legendary clan
not important bro, influential. influence is the name of the game and that's why i said there are clans that have had a bunch of staff that aren't and shouldn't be considered legendary because just because they had a name with a color didn't mean that made an outstanding impact on the community worthy of being considered legendary.
How about we just don't discount clan league wins as being important? The first clan league matters (cus it's the first lol) but the second doesn't? Total horseshit.
see above sentence about the win(s)
Ok, so according to you popularity doesn't matter ('objective' remarkableness does). According to hax it does. According to person Z a history of staff members is critical. According to person Y, it's not.
well no I didn't say popularity doesn't matter, but its more than just popularity. this is the only thing inquisition has for an argument, colored names and popularity
instead of trying to refute each of my points maybe you could tell me what lasting impact inquisition staff (that were actually known for being in the clan in their career) had on the community during their time. then it would be easier for you to argue for inquisition specifically as the thread suggests and not for a standardized point-by-point explanation on how a clan becomes legendary. this is going to change every year, thats why there isn't one. [T] as an example is a clan legendary for the large amount of skilled replay makers, one day there might be a clan that will become legendary for a large amount of mod makers that will have created every current official mod of the era, that would make them legendary.
what specifics would you suggest in why a clan should be legendary, there are a few objective points obviously, this is the reason why it is exclusive, but you can't possibly expect there to be a criteria.
if you think so, tell me the criteria of the nba hall of fame for example, there are some objective ones, multiple championships, popularity but impact on the game of basketball is the most key factor. same applies for legendary clans.
With no actual criteria laid out, it's just everybody's competing opinions. I've made this point about 50 times now. You recognise this, you made the distinction between 'it is'/'should be'. This leads me into my response below;
You say these measures should be put to account but right above, you just denied popularity as measure. I'm gonna assume that was a mistake (cus including notoriety as a measure and not including popularity is silliness (really though, if anything, we should be including popularity as a measure and discounting notoriety)). Regardless, you've made a point about competing measures.
no i didn't deny it you said it in a way that it has to be either or, I guess I should have responded as: is ALSO judged to not confuse you with my wording.
i used should to reaffirm, as: this is the way it should be. not 'should' as in this should be a rule/measure and also written down for the entire community, it's really common sense see - the info on basketball hall of fame.
Inq has similar achievements to spirit (was alive for longer also, but let's discount that for now). How do we weigh these measures that make up 'remarkableness' (we'll use your criteria for the sake of argument)? If a clan league win is worth 10 points, does high notoriety = 5? Does popularity = 5? Does having had a lot of influential staff members =10? Does having legends = 5 (or is legends included in popularity/notoriety)? Are there other measures (is lifespan one) - How much are they worth?
yes, lets discount that completely, because some of these clans were not alive very long, but made a lasting impact on the community and therefore got legend. you can also be around for 10 years and not be a legend and it shouldn't be an issue because of the length of time.
you keep looking for like value per criteria, this is the way you think and i respect that, but some things are not black and white as you would like them to be. but shouldn't it be obvious that the clan should make a lasting positive impact on the community to be legendary?
Why don't we try and formalize (using remarkableness as the overarching value) a system for judging legend clans? Then we could actually determine the 'objective remarkableness' of each legend clan and see where Inq lies (and other future clans you might want to add)? Rather than each of us making proclamations based on what we think is important and what we understand about each clan.
Let's do it, where's the harm? All this is is an attempt to establish 'true' objective remarkableness, as opposed to one person's interpretation of it (what measures matter) and weightings (how much does each measure matter).
it's always going to be about the effect that had on the community bro, each clan is going to have their own different type of effect this is why we cannot create something like what you are asking for. if you want to determine the objective remarkableness: tell me what inq staff did that had a positive effect on the community today and you win.
we can always go back and forth on the criteria, and i'm positive that even if me and you agreed on some set point system for legendary clans inq still wouldn't make it and it would be a huge waste of time. as the years progress there will be new features new ways for clans to impact the community and be notable each year do we need to add points to the system?
if your clan pioneered x mod for x years you should be legend
if your clan members did x achievement and set x standard for the community you should be legend
so on and so forth, it can go on forever, just tell me: what has inq done that positively impacted the community for a while, or even a little bit during the era they were alive? what were they known for besides having a lot of colored names that they actually absorbed other clans to get them? did you know inq also stole clan members from other clans that were staff? should this be recognized as a clan that is legendary because of staff and the staff were only there for a small period of time in the clans 10 year activity?
teeth marks on my goosebumps, the chains frostbit me.
Ok, you dislike me taking things point by point (even tho u responded to me the same way), so I'll try going over things in a less piecemeal fashion.
To answer your bolded question first - I don't know man. I was only in it for a relatively brief amount of time. There are others who were in it longer who could explain the effect they (and others) had on the community at various points.
Creati0n was a leader within the clan for a long time (before I joined and after I left). He's pretty much the papa of the market and I'd venture to say he's influenced the market side of Toribash more than anyone. I'm not involved in the dev side of things, so I don't know how much Tuna has impacted the site with his work, but he was also in Inq for a long spell. Yiazmat and Daedalus (iirc) were long-term members and bigtime leaders in the BR community. Then there's FNugget. But as I said, I was only there for a short amount of time. I'm not the best advocate for Inq as I'm not intimately acquainted with all the details of who joined when and how long they stayed. If anyone can give you a detailed history of the impact of the members of Inq, it'd be LightningKid (who himself was a big player in clan council/clan squad). He could also shed some light on the 'old' history of Inq, which included influential folks like Snide_The_Clyde, Uric, AlexOwnz, eighter yada yada yada
Unique impact can be quantified.
It'd actually be quite easy to incorporate these 'new measures' for remarkableness, should they appear. We'll use your [T] and hypothetical mod-making clan example. You have 'standard measures' that you assign points to and you have ULSP (unique legendary selling point) that you assign points to. [T]'s ULSP, what makes them special and different, is replaymaking. The modmaking clan's ULSP would be modmaking. ULSP's can be worth a set amount of points.
So yeah, if a new clan came along that impacted the community in some new, unique way, you could for sure incorporate and measure that impact.
It'd only be a huge waste of time if we constructed the criteria+weightings and then never used them again.
Categorically disagree that winning a clan league means shit-all. It's a big thing to be a clan league winner.
On your basketball Hall of Fame analogy... I couldn't tell you a thing about basketball man. I can tell you about UFC and their Hall of Fame though. It's full of one-time championship winning old-school legends. People that helped bring eyes to the sport back in the early days. Popularity is a big part of it. Urijah Faber never even won a UFC belt, but he was popular for so long that he inspired other short fellas to pursue the sport. Inq was also super popular clan that, as you said, housed many staffers for short periods. What was it that attracted these staffers (and future staffers) to Inq in the first place? They wanted to join Inq because of that high reputation and popularity that Inq held.
So what does Inq have then, in terms of 'objective' measures. Since we're not counting lifespan (sorry Evil), Inq had super high popularity, it had tbd (but absolutely more than a moderate amount of) influence on the game (we'd require a true oldschooler's analysis of the old memberlist to determine this precisely), and it was the strongest clan of 08, evidenced by their clan league win. On top of that, countless staffers (or would be staffers) passed through the halls of Inq in their Toribash careers - It was somewhat of a breeding ground - Call that Inq's unique selling point.
I don't know why you'd be so confident that a set point system for determining legendary status would result in Inq failing (unless you purposely decide to ignore the (as hax said) legitimately extraordinary achievement of winning a clan league).
Stop proving my point.
Oh the horror, Inq 'stole' members from other clans. Inq 'stole' entire clans. People joined Inq of their free will bro. There was never a gun to anyone's head. Quit making this out to be such a heinous crime... Ur bias is showing.
Hell, [NO] is pretty much a conglomerate of like 5 different clans - Bncy, Torigod, TGS, throw in a bit of RAWR, throw in a smidge of Inq even. "Wahh, [NO] STOLE those players" - That would be a stupid thing to whine about.
To answer your bolded question first - I don't know man. I was only in it for a relatively brief amount of time. There are others who were in it longer who could explain the effect they (and others) had on the community at various points.
Creati0n was a leader within the clan for a long time (before I joined and after I left). He's pretty much the papa of the market and I'd venture to say he's influenced the market side of Toribash more than anyone. I'm not involved in the dev side of things, so I don't know how much Tuna has impacted the site with his work, but he was also in Inq for a long spell. Yiazmat and Daedalus (iirc) were long-term members and bigtime leaders in the BR community. Then there's FNugget. But as I said, I was only there for a short amount of time. I'm not the best advocate for Inq as I'm not intimately acquainted with all the details of who joined when and how long they stayed. If anyone can give you a detailed history of the impact of the members of Inq, it'd be LightningKid (who himself was a big player in clan council/clan squad). He could also shed some light on the 'old' history of Inq, which included influential folks like Snide_The_Clyde, Uric, AlexOwnz, eighter yada yada yada
Originally Posted by mwah
we can always go back and forth on the criteria, and i'm positive that even if me and you agreed on some set point system for legendary clans inq still wouldn't make it and it would be a huge waste of time. as the years progress there will be new features new ways for clans to impact the community and be notable each year do we need to add points to the system?
Unique impact can be quantified.
It'd actually be quite easy to incorporate these 'new measures' for remarkableness, should they appear. We'll use your [T] and hypothetical mod-making clan example. You have 'standard measures' that you assign points to and you have ULSP (unique legendary selling point) that you assign points to. [T]'s ULSP, what makes them special and different, is replaymaking. The modmaking clan's ULSP would be modmaking. ULSP's can be worth a set amount of points.
So yeah, if a new clan came along that impacted the community in some new, unique way, you could for sure incorporate and measure that impact.
It'd only be a huge waste of time if we constructed the criteria+weightings and then never used them again.
Originally Posted by Mwah
I would agree 1 single one in 10 years of being active doesn't matter
Categorically disagree that winning a clan league means shit-all. It's a big thing to be a clan league winner.
On your basketball Hall of Fame analogy... I couldn't tell you a thing about basketball man. I can tell you about UFC and their Hall of Fame though. It's full of one-time championship winning old-school legends. People that helped bring eyes to the sport back in the early days. Popularity is a big part of it. Urijah Faber never even won a UFC belt, but he was popular for so long that he inspired other short fellas to pursue the sport. Inq was also super popular clan that, as you said, housed many staffers for short periods. What was it that attracted these staffers (and future staffers) to Inq in the first place? They wanted to join Inq because of that high reputation and popularity that Inq held.
So what does Inq have then, in terms of 'objective' measures. Since we're not counting lifespan (sorry Evil), Inq had super high popularity, it had tbd (but absolutely more than a moderate amount of) influence on the game (we'd require a true oldschooler's analysis of the old memberlist to determine this precisely), and it was the strongest clan of 08, evidenced by their clan league win. On top of that, countless staffers (or would be staffers) passed through the halls of Inq in their Toribash careers - It was somewhat of a breeding ground - Call that Inq's unique selling point.
I don't know why you'd be so confident that a set point system for determining legendary status would result in Inq failing (unless you purposely decide to ignore the (as hax said) legitimately extraordinary achievement of winning a clan league).
Originally Posted by mwah
what were they known for besides having a lot of colored names that they actually absorbed other clans to get them? did you know inq also stole clan members from other clans that were staff?
Stop proving my point.
Originally Posted by Ele
It was looked down on by the [NO]gang highstaff patriarchy which ran clan shit for a while.... Efforts to stay alive by absorbing other clans were seen as tarnishing.
Oh the horror, Inq 'stole' members from other clans. Inq 'stole' entire clans. People joined Inq of their free will bro. There was never a gun to anyone's head. Quit making this out to be such a heinous crime... Ur bias is showing.
Hell, [NO] is pretty much a conglomerate of like 5 different clans - Bncy, Torigod, TGS, throw in a bit of RAWR, throw in a smidge of Inq even. "Wahh, [NO] STOLE those players" - That would be a stupid thing to whine about.
Last edited by Ele; Jan 5, 2020 at 07:40 PM.
[QUOTE=Ele;11700883]
nah bro i think you miss understood me
i don't think you can make legend clan induction based on clan league win = x point like you said in your post
creati0n himself said inq shouldn't be legend
okay thats there selling point but i don't understand how it's quantified accurately. you can make a "ulsp" out of any category you can imagine. you can even use it for inq being 10 years alive but i guess for your ref not all "ulsp's" are created equally, some are much more notable than others
they weren't even the strongest clan, smilies2 carried them through that clan league by winning every single game so i would say its not something i would associate as the clan being dominant as a whole but having a dominate player. not diminishing their win tho, a win is a win.
but '11 was their prime no? and like i mentioned earlier you can argue [hive] had more influence during that time than inq and they are not legendary
ok, how would your point system work? i mentioned before the "ulsp" can be anything you can think of so how can it be set in stone the point system would change every few months no?
chill i didn't describe it like you are with the tagline of 'heinous crime' but lets be real they would have died had they not requested merges with other dying clans to continue their life span. which is why their age of 10 years can't be used as a selling point
how is no any of what you said, most of the members were in the same clan for forever and we didnt ask to merge with the clans, when those clans died the notable members happened to join no
honestly theres no bias, you would be surprised how many inq members i spoke with that all say the clan shouldn't be legendary
here are some inq member quotes in relation to if inq should be legendary
"we're one of them 3rd ballot hall of famers
when its like an off year"
"i was a leader for some time and i don't even think we should be legendary"
"we won CL
thats it"
real quotes from members who were in the clan for a while that i literally spoke to about it today
Ok, you dislike me taking things point by point (even tho u responded to me the same way), so I'll try going over things in a less piecemeal fashion.
nah bro i think you miss understood me
i don't think you can make legend clan induction based on clan league win = x point like you said in your post
To answer your bolded question first - I don't know man. I was only in it for a relatively brief amount of time. There are others who were in it longer who could explain the effect they (and others) had on the community at various points.
Creati0n was a leader within the clan for a long time (before I joined and after I left). He's pretty much the papa of the market and I'd venture to say he's influenced the market side of Toribash more than anyone. I'm not involved in the dev side of things, so I don't know how much Tuna has impacted the site with his work, but he was also in Inq for a long spell. Yiazmat and Daedalus (iirc) were long-term members and bigtime leaders in the BR community. Then there's FNugget. But as I said, I was only there for a short amount of time. I'm not the best advocate for Inq as I'm not intimately acquainted with all the details of who joined when and how long they stayed. If anyone can give you a detailed history of the impact of the members of Inq, it'd be LightningKid (who himself was a big player in clan council/clan squad). He could also shed some light on the 'old' history of Inq, which included influential folks like Snide_The_Clyde, Uric, AlexOwnz, eighter yada yada yada
creati0n himself said inq shouldn't be legend
Unique impact can be quantified.
It'd actually be quite easy to incorporate these 'new measures' for remarkableness, should they appear. We'll use your [T] and hypothetical mod-making clan example. You have 'standard measures' that you assign points to and you have ULSP (unique legendary selling point) that you assign points to. [T]'s ULSP, what makes them special and different, is replaymaking. The modmaking clan's ULSP would be modmaking. ULSP's can be worth a set amount of points.
So yeah, if a new clan came along that impacted the community in some new, unique way, you could for sure incorporate and measure that impact.
It'd only be a huge waste of time if we constructed the criteria+weightings and then never used them again.
Categorically disagree that winning a clan league means shit-all. It's a big thing to be a clan league winner.
On your basketball Hall of Fame analogy... I couldn't tell you a thing about basketball man. I can tell you about UFC and their Hall of Fame though. It's full of one-time championship winning old-school legends. People that helped bring eyes to the sport back in the early days. Popularity is a big part of it. Urijah Faber never even won a UFC belt, but he was popular for so long that he inspired other short fellas to pursue the sport. Inq was also super popular clan that, as you said, housed many staffers for short periods. What was it that attracted these staffers (and future staffers) to Inq in the first place? They wanted to join Inq because of that high reputation and popularity that Inq held.
okay thats there selling point but i don't understand how it's quantified accurately. you can make a "ulsp" out of any category you can imagine. you can even use it for inq being 10 years alive but i guess for your ref not all "ulsp's" are created equally, some are much more notable than others
So what does Inq have then, in terms of 'objective' measures. Since we're not counting lifespan (sorry Evil), Inq had super high popularity, it had tbd (but absolutely more than a moderate amount of) influence on the game (we'd require a true oldschooler's analysis of the old memberlist to determine this precisely), and it was the strongest clan of 08, evidenced by their clan league win. On top of that, countless staffers (or would be staffers) passed through the halls of Inq in their Toribash careers - It was somewhat of a breeding ground - Call that Inq's unique selling point.
they weren't even the strongest clan, smilies2 carried them through that clan league by winning every single game so i would say its not something i would associate as the clan being dominant as a whole but having a dominate player. not diminishing their win tho, a win is a win.
but '11 was their prime no? and like i mentioned earlier you can argue [hive] had more influence during that time than inq and they are not legendary
I don't know why you'd be so confident that a set point system for determining legendary status would result in Inq failing (unless you purposely decide to ignore the (as hax said) legitimately extraordinary achievement of winning a clan league).
ok, how would your point system work? i mentioned before the "ulsp" can be anything you can think of so how can it be set in stone the point system would change every few months no?
Stop proving my point.
Oh the horror, Inq 'stole' members from other clans. Inq 'stole' entire clans. People joined Inq of their free will bro. There was never a gun to anyone's head. Quit making this out to be such a heinous crime... Ur bias is showing.
Hell, [NO] is pretty much a conglomerate of like 5 different clans - Bncy, Torigod, TGS, throw in a bit of RAWR, throw in a smidge of Inq even. "Wahh, [NO] STOLE those players" - That would be a stupid thing to whine about.
chill i didn't describe it like you are with the tagline of 'heinous crime' but lets be real they would have died had they not requested merges with other dying clans to continue their life span. which is why their age of 10 years can't be used as a selling point
how is no any of what you said, most of the members were in the same clan for forever and we didnt ask to merge with the clans, when those clans died the notable members happened to join no
honestly theres no bias, you would be surprised how many inq members i spoke with that all say the clan shouldn't be legendary
here are some inq member quotes in relation to if inq should be legendary
"we're one of them 3rd ballot hall of famers
when its like an off year"
"i was a leader for some time and i don't even think we should be legendary"
"we won CL
thats it"
real quotes from members who were in the clan for a while that i literally spoke to about it today
teeth marks on my goosebumps, the chains frostbit me.
