Originally Posted by mWah
do one for tom and it’s about the same graph, the only difference is he arguably fought more dangerous opps, most dangerous dude tom fought was curtis blaydes and he got ko by him previously regardless. tom fought a 45 year old and less decorated opps
based on the timeline were there other contenders during that time that jon should have fought in place of the opp he did?
let’s not pretend some of the best mma fighters at most times are 30+, the dude just started his career early against better opps
most of aspinalls early opps are also old or cans, his first real fight at 21 he fought a 36 y/o the point is kinda moot
good boy, so neither aspinall or jon boner jones are the goat of mma so we agree
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Originally Posted by mWah
do one for tom and it’s about the same graph, the only difference is he arguably fought more dangerous opps, most dangerous dude tom fought was curtis blaydes and he got ko by him previously regardless. tom fought a 45 year old and less decorated opps
based on the timeline were there other contenders during that time that jon should have fought in place of the opp he did?
let’s not pretend some of the best mma fighters at most times are 30+, the dude just started his career early against better opps
most of aspinalls early opps are also old or cans, his first real fight at 21 he fought a 36 y/o the point is kinda moot
"most dangerous dude tom fought was curtis blaydes" keep in mind Aspinall knocked out Pavlovich the scariest knockout artist in HW, who was riding a 6 fight RD1 KO streak to win the interim belt. Aspinall has an average fight time of 2 minutes and 10 seconds, against the best HWs in the world. What he would do to the Jones that fought last night could only be described in barbaric inscriptions. What is even worse is a known PED cheat can't even get a knockout with his hands, up a weight class.
Originally Posted by mWah
do one for tom and it’s about the same graph, the only difference is he arguably fought more dangerous opps, most dangerous dude tom fought was curtis blaydes and he got ko by him previously regardless.
Firstly, it's worth noting that Tom got injured against Curtis Blaydes after a kick was checked, and the fight was immediately stopped. Saying "he got ko by him previously" is either ignorant or dishonest.
Secondly I do not believe Jon Jones fought more "dangerous" opponents, only that many of his former opponents were subject to undue fantasy and legend status (mostly due to PRIDE nostalgia). Light Heavyweight historically is a very weak division, and Jon's early wins were against fighters who would be in the Middleweight division today. I'll explicitly name such fighters:
- Shogun Rua (6'1, due to fluffy build he could have easily made MW with a cut)
- Lyoto Machida (6'1, once weighed in at 198 for a LHW bout, has been fighting in MW exclusively since 2022)
- Rampage Jackson (6'1, has fought in MW before)
- Rashad Evans (5'11, fought in MW in 2017 at the age of 37)
- Vitor Belfort (6'0, literal career MW)
- Chael Sonnen (6'1, literal career MW)
- Daniel Cormier (listed as 5'11 but probably closer to 5'10, MW who could not commit to a diet)
Jon's first defenses in LHW were largely against undersized, older, past-prime fighters who were finally facing a LHW fighter actually proportionate to the division.
Originally Posted by mWah
tom fought a 45 year old and less decorated opps
The "former champions" narrative does not hold up for many reasons, some of which I've explained above. The significance of championships are in relation to who the fighter(s) beat to attain and defend said championships. Just because someone beat a "former champion" does not mean that a win against someone who never held a belt is less valuable.
For instance, Demetrious Johnson beating John Dodson (especially the rematch) is a win that is of higher quality than any win on Jon Jones' record. Why? Because Dodson posed massive stylistic problems for Johnson; he was a fighter who was just as fast, hit harder, was more durable (I might be wrong, but I believe Dodson ended his career suffering ZERO knockdowns), and had fantastic takedown defense. We were able to see Demetrious Johnson overcome the unfavorable matchup in real time in their 1st fight, and then completely transforming and dominating Dodson in the rematch. Dodson never holding a title does not detract from the quality of the wins.
Meanwhile, is there an equivalent fight for Jon Jones? Someone might answer with the Dominick Reyes fight, but I reject this idea because I strongly believe Reyes was robbed of a victory (for now, I won't elaborate). Against Thiago Santos, Jones did quite a poor job of adjusting to Santos' leg kicks and NARROWLY scraped by with a win. Other than that, I don't believe there's such a fight where Jon had to "overcome" much, as Jon enjoyed the most important advantages in all of his fights. This does not mean Jon is *that good*, but is more indicative of the lack of quality competition in LHW for the majority of UFC's history (and I'll even say that this remains largely true with Alex Pereira taking over the division!)
Now, if Jon takes a fight against Tom Aspinall, I'll gladly eat my words; a win against Aspinall would easily be the greatest win in Jon's career to date because of the fact that Aspinall enjoys the most important advantages; youth, athleticism, power, speed, and an equivalent threat on the ground.
Originally Posted by mWah
based on the timeline were there other contenders during that time that jon should have fought in place of the opp he did?
No, but as I mentioned above, the LHW has historically been low-talent.
Originally Posted by mWah
most of aspinalls early opps are also old or cans, his first real fight at 21 he fought a 36 y/o the point is kinda moot
Nobody is saying Aspinall is all-time greater than Jones, only that Aspinall is currently better than Jones, and that Jones is going to attempt to avoid fighting him while being the Heavyweight champion. Because of this, people are taking a closer look at Jones' career and realizing there's many glaring holes in his resume that only spell trouble for the "unambiguous GOAT" narrative.
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Originally Posted by Moonshake
For instance, Demetrious Johnson beating John Dodson (especially the rematch) is a win that is of higher quality than any win on Jon Jones' record. Why? Because Dodson posed massive stylistic problems for Johnson; he was a fighter who was just as fast, hit harder, was more durable (I might be wrong, but I believe Dodson ended his career suffering ZERO knockdowns), and had fantastic takedown defense. We were able to see Demetrious Johnson overcome the unfavorable matchup in real time in their 1st fight, and then completely transforming and dominating Dodson in the rematch. Dodson never holding a title does not detract from the quality of the wins.
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