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Oct 19, 2009 Old
Originally Posted by footside View Post
No you can't. What I'm looking for cannot be explained by anybody (except for God). So in other words I don't plan on ever changing my faith. I already know the origin of the universe, earth, and life (etc.) to the extent that humans currently have knowledge of. So no you cannot help me in anyway.

you have faith that your faith will be proven, its not the same as knowing, and ummm if it cant be explained by anyone but god, howcome its to the extent of what humans know?
thanatos probably can help you, since your melodramatic rants would probably be better educated and supported if you acctually listened and tried to understand the other sides points

bleh, I want some new topics in discussion
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Oct 19, 2009 Old
Originally Posted by footside View Post
No you can't. What I'm looking for cannot be explained by anybody (except for God). So in other words I don't plan on ever changing my faith. I already know the origin of the universe, earth, and life (etc.) to the extent that humans currently have knowledge of. So no you cannot help me in anyway.

Thanks, I lol'd at this post.

Here's a middle school kiddo whose complete knowledge of history of the universe puts all life-long dedicated astrophysicists to shame

Truth of the matter is - you have not the slightest bloody idea of the knowledge competent scientists of this world posess. Even your regular adult with a college degree has little clue about current models of the universe and why they are what they are. You either have to be an actual astrophysicist or a really curious and persistent person to grasp those concepts.

I suggest you loosen that close-minded stance of yours and don't delude yourself into thinking you know anywhere near enough to answer questions anywhere near as big.
Last edited by Odlov; Oct 19, 2009 at 06:55 AM.
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Well this is easy,

I'm a non-denominational Christian. Why? I think the evidence is more convincing and logically tenable.
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Originally Posted by BlakNWyte View Post
Well this is easy,

I'm a non-denominational Christian. Why? I think the evidence is more convincing and logically tenable.

Can you elaborate more, since you posted and all? :P
I'm especially curious why you are not a deist but specifically convinced of a christian (all-loving, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient) god.

I know we've had these discussions long ago but since this thread is here anyway...
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Originally Posted by Odlov View Post
Can you elaborate more, since you posted and all? :P

I will gladly

I'm especially curious why you are not a deist but specifically convinced of a christian (all-loving, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient) god.

I am specifically convinced of the Christian god from various arguments, some of them you already know- like the teleological argument and KCA.

There is also the moral argument, the ontological argument, the problem of evil, and many more.

I grant that some of these are more convincing to me than others- the kalam for instance I believe provides a certainly strong and reasonable argument for a deity and creator, and the Ontological argument further describe a creator being who is all powerful and all knowing. The moral argument I have less interest in, and has not had a great impact on people I've talked to on a personal level. I always have trouble explaining things.
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We're still discussing KCA - lets bring the Ontological and moral ones up.

All Kalam tries to advocate is causeless cause - not necessarily biblical god.
Surely something other convinces you of christianity. Although i thought we talked a lot about morals and "problem of evil" before, but i wouldn't mind repeating if you find them convincing enough.
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Oct 19, 2009 Old
Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
(tl;dr at bottom)

Thanatos: You're able to, with 100% undoubted validity, explain the origin of the universe and everything in it, or for that matter evolution/Earth's creation?

:|

Didn't say that. I say I could provide conclusive proof for all of them, except the origin of the universe because currently there are a few very good theories regarding this.

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
No. There is no conclusive proof that the universe formed one way or the other (aka that one theory is better than another [save if you're comparing the theory that the universe is balanced on the back of an elephant and the theory that it happened naturally).

There is the Wave Function of the Universe theory which was backed up by the observations of the COBE satellites. If you look at my post I specifically make an exception for the Origin of the Universe. The origin of Life can be argued as well although I personally believe Abiogenesis has enough scientific standing.

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
Whether it happened because some omnipotent being created it through methods unbeknown to mere humans, or through chance resulting from an explosion of matter, or because there's over 400 flavors of ice cream in some parallel universe, you can't begin to validate anything beyond reasonable doubt, and vice versa (you can't invalidate anything beyond much reasonable doubt unless it's completely retarded).

Hence why I made the exception for the Origin of the Universe

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
Evolution of life, scientists have a rough idea how it would have occurred- not the exact events leading up to evolution's current result, or reasons for those events, or even IF some of those events happened. Earth, yeah, scientists know how it was probably created in the formation of the universe (pretty much like every other solid planet in the universe) but what led up that creation? The Big Bang? God? Some kind of mix? You can't definitively say which of the three. If you try to say "THIS ONE FOR SURE", you're an utter imbecile.

Scientists are utter imbeciles for saying Evolution definitely occurred?

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
But even those are just theories, assumptions based upon assumptions based upon assumptions. That's how science works. It's a big network of assumptions which we have to assume are true until proven otherwise by new discoveries. Any moment now you could end up finding out that you're really in the Matrix, but until that moment, you have to assume you're in reality because you don't see any reason not to. Similarly, scientists from 500+ years ago saw no reason to assume that the universe didn't result from God farting and that the Earth was the center of the universe.

Yeah, I can't take this post very seriously anymore. "Just theories" sounds as if you are about to launch into a creationist debate here.

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
Modern scientists have more knowledge, they know what works and doesn't work, but they still can't solidly say something like evolution happened exactly the way they say it did. Their assumptions are still open to fault. Maybe a hundred years from now, or fifty, or maybe even five considering the rate of technological advancement the world currently enjoys, all those assumptions will end up being unfounded ramblings of some cockfaced guys who will seem stupid in comparison to future science.

And yet, they do. Yeah, scientists are pretty damn convinced that Evolution is FACT.

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
tl;dr: Much of modern science is not disprovable fact. It's a network of ides and assumptions that we have to conceive as true until they're proven otherwise.

Bull...complete and utter rubbish. Science can be disproven at any time by contradictory evidence. Learn some real science before coming back with a load of garbage. To be honest if you are going to say that Evolution etc. is built from assumptions and ideas then you aren't very smart to say the least. Science is built on observable evidence.

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
This:

makes you seem like some arrogant prick with no basis for his arrogance. This on the other hand,

would have been a much better choice of words.

Nah, I like being an arrogant prick...in fact most people would agree with that description (especially if you had been in the debate section).

And I still stand by my original statement.

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
Regardless, the solid theories you would provide might give explanation for how some of those things happened, but they wouldn't disprove the existence of that guy's precious God- who says all of those theories didn't happen because God made them happen that way?

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster View Post
So now here's your reply, Mr. Thanatos; a fifty page thesis on how the universe was made (I WANT A TIMELINE IN THERE TOO), why it happened that way, why a God doesn't exist (please attach conclusive, indisputable proof), where we are now and where we will end up, how evolution happened (maybe an animated short), and in conclusion, why the grass is seemingly greener on the other side of the fence. (include psychological studies about humans' social perception)

Please include proper citation.

Now I could write that, except the universe part. Except I have a law paper to submit and it's my birthday on wednesday and I will spend the next week pretty drunk. So I shall politely decline that offer and instead off you a selection of web links.

A speech by Stephen Hawking:
http://www.ralentz.com/old/astro/hawking-1.html

Peer review of the Wave Function Of The Universe:
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v28/i12/p2960_1

A good website regarding Evolution:
http://www.talkorigins.org/

Evolution of E.Coli Bacteria over 21 years:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/bl...ugh-2009-10-18

African cichlid fish, System of Adaptive Radiation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635482/


Originally Posted by footside View Post
No you can't. What I'm looking for cannot be explained by anybody (except for God). So in other words I don't plan on ever changing my faith. I already know the origin of the universe, earth, and life (etc.) to the extent that humans currently have knowledge of. So no you cannot help me in anyway.

Well glad to see you are so open-minded and you don't know the origin of the universe, nobody does there are only theories regarding it just now.

So basically you are willingly ignorant of the fundamental basis of reality.
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Originally Posted by Thanatos12 View Post
Didn't say that... (all the way up to)Hence why I made the exception for the Origin of the Universe

K.

Originally Posted by Thanatos12 View Post
Scientists are utter imbeciles for saying Evolution definitely occurred?

No, and I didn't say that. Now a scientist claiming to have indisputable proof that evolution happened in such and such a way (and not broad things like "itz happend becuz we come from apez" but things like "THIS GENUS CAME RIGHT AFTER THE SPECIES-DEVELOPMENT OF ITS FOURTH COUSIN IN THE EVOLUTIONARY CHAIN WHICH HAPPENED DUE TO THE FACT THAT A MAGNETIC REVERSAL OF THE EARTH'S POLES TOOK PLACE AT THE TIME AND THE AMOUNT..."

Originally Posted by Thanatos12 View Post
Yeah, I can't take this post very seriously anymore. "Just theories" sounds as if you are about to launch into a creationist debate here.

In other words; "HEY BRO EVEN THOUGH WHAT YOU SAY IS PRETTY MUCH TRUE I'M GOING TO TRY AND DISREGARD IT BECAUSE I REALLY HAVE NOTHING TO SAY IN REPLY TO THIS."

Originally Posted by Thanatos12 View Post
And yet, they do. Yeah, scientists are pretty damn convinced that Evolution is FACT.

You're incredibly thickheaded, hope you've realized this by now. Funnily enough, scientists don't. Evolution in its entirety, in other words, its occurrence (fuck those words were too big for you; OK, evolution happening), is fact; how it precisely happened and all the events leading through the course of evolution up to present time is widely disputed. No scientist can thoroughly and accurately document evolution's course save for broad, sweeping generalizations like "WELP OBVIOUSLY THE BACTERIA WERE HERE DEN THE DINOSAURS AND DEN WE HUMANS EVOLVED FROM PRIMATES". There's even debate about the stuff that's easier to pin down, like which animal came first in a chain of evolution. "WAS IT DE ALLIGATORS OR DE CROCODILES WHO CAME FIRST WEL I PERSONALLY THINK THE GECKO TBH"


Originally Posted by Thanatos12 View Post
Bull...complete and utter rubbish. Science can be disproven at any time by contradictory evidence. Learn some real science before coming back with a load of garbage. To be honest if you are going to say that Evolution etc. is built from assumptions and ideas then you aren't very smart to say the least. Science is built on observable evidence

Observations lead to hypotheses (aka an assumption or idea based upon evidence) Did you know you can't observe evolution, unless you're able to physically compare two animals from different time periods? Charles Darwin's initial theory of evolution was based upon real-time observations of animals in the Caribbean; he was only seeing the results, not the process, of evolution. That's not evidence of anything. So uh, "if you are going to say that Evolution etc. is built from assumptions and ideas then you aren't very smart to say the least" True, I have an IQ of 60, and yet I'm smearing you all over this issue- what's that say about you? Enjoy your fail.

Also...

"Science can be disproven at any time by contradictory evidence"

That's what I said.

"...ideas and assumptions that we have to conceive as true until they're proven otherwise."

and you called that bull, rubbish, and garbage. Hurhurhurhurhur.

My, my. I love arrogance. You know why? Because you, while being arrogant, end up seeming dim-witted (actually, I've observed this enough times to factually conclude that you don't SEEM dumb, but rather, you are) and extremely self-contradictory. I wonder what's going to happen when you seize that keyboard in a fit of rage after you realize how badly you just messed up? I'd better go prepare some counter-insults for your witty retorts. (Now watch as he denies his self-contradiction)

Originally Posted by Thanatos12 View Post
Nah, I like being an arrogant prick...

Which is funny as you have no basis for it.

Originally Posted by Thanatos12 View Post
Now I could write that, except the universe part. Except I have a law paper to submit and it's my birthday on wednesday and I will spend the next week pretty drunk. So I shall politely decline that offer and instead off you a selection of web links.

Pfft, birthdays and law papers, what an excuse. Get to work instead of throwing up other scientists' papers. Feel free to cite them so long as you don't just copy/paste. Also, you're not writing this by hand, so the inebriation doesn't really matter- MS word will fix your drnk speling unles ur ttly dkrned leiki meannoengou

tl;dr: Thanatos12 is an arrogant, ignorant, self-contradictory fool, which is pretty ironic considering he'd like to fancy himself as some god of debating with totally indisputable arguments. He'll also probably reply to this post and state that he did not contradict himself (despite the fact that he did) and then completely go off-topic by saying "DUDE EVOLUTION HAPPENED AND OK SO WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO AWAY BECAUSE YOU ARE DUMP FOR SAYING IT DID NOT" in a fruitless effort to distract everyone from his fail.

tl;dr the tl;dr: Thanatos12 generally sucks at this :|

Notice: User has received an infraction for this post. Don't directly insult other members, however much they may piss you off.
-Odlov
Last edited by Odlov; Oct 19, 2009 at 11:32 PM.
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