Toribash
In England we are allowed to choose what subjects we do. Some subjects are compulsory at my school up to the point I am at but then we can do whichever four subjects we want in the last two years of school. I do not care how much choice we have (as long as I am not forced to do subjects which I can't to a ridiculous level), to me what matters most is what is in the exams.

The scientific curriculum I have just finished studying (I am about to change courses from GCSE which has 9 subjects to A level in which you can chose whatever subjects you like and usualy people do 4 at my school), when put into booklet format, amounts to 269 pages. We have to study a similar amount for six other subjects at the same time.

I can tell you what pressure and temperature is used in the direct hydration of ethanol, the production of ammonia and the production of sulphuric acid as well as what the latter two final products can be used to make. Do you really believe that knowing I can make nylon out of ammonia is going to be usefull? It could be argued that such processes demonstrate chemical but do I need to know the tempurature at each end of a crude oil distillation tower?

I enjoy learning sciences but there is a point where it stops being scientific and start being random facts. I am sorry if this post sounds quite aggressive, the tone is unintentional. It is easy to think that GCSE is basic because the actual science we learn us basic, but it is no longer only science we are tested on. One of the questions in my physics paper was about how hurricanes form (it makes sense because it is convection but such questions are confusing for geographers because the diagram in the paper was incorrect).

This is why I like maths and liked physics so much. Maths requires nothing but logic, all the answers are there but you have to present them in the right way. Physic equations are usually common sense. However, the exam board is trying to make the science papers more writing based than equation and knowledge based, which is probably better as a test of intellect but which make physics much less enjoyable.

You talk about education before university like it doesn't matter but exams are what decide who is good enough to go to which university so they are inseparably linked.

Keep in mind that the knowledge I have told you we require is only for GCSE, this will still be considered as easy when we move onto studying for the next set of exams, A levels. I probably sound really defensive and offended in most of this post so I think it us worth pointing out that my pride was not dented by your slander of my current studies and I am not writing this to regain confidence in my intelligence.

I hope that covers everything and makes some sort of sense. Thank you for reading. I am going to do some more revision for the chemistry exam I have in about 5 hours from now.
Good morning sweet princess
Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
The scientific curriculum I have just finished studying (I am about to change courses from GCSE which has 9 subjects to A level in which you can chose whatever subjects you like and usualy people do 4 at my school), when put into booklet format, amounts to 269 pages. We have to study a similar amount for six other subjects at the same time.

Page number doesn't mean much. Even if you take into account typeface, distance between lines, distance from the edge of the paper, ... it doesn't mean much. A page of text/ a table that spreads accross one page, a drawing or a picture, ... all different.

Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
I can tell you what pressure and temperature is used in the direct hydration of ethanol, the production of ammonia and the production of sulphuric acid as well as what the latter two final products can be used to make. Do you really believe that knowing I can make nylon out of ammonia is going to be usefull? It could be argued that such processes demonstrate chemical but do I need to know the tempurature at each end of a crude oil distillation tower?

Do you mean dehydration, perhaps? Also, the numbers don't matter, but the process does. Dehydration is a simple concept in organochem.

Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
I enjoy learning sciences but there is a point where it stops being scientific and start being random facts. I am sorry if this post sounds quite aggressive, the tone is unintentional. It is easy to think that GCSE is basic because the actual science we learn us basic, but it is no longer only science we are tested on. One of the questions in my physics paper was about how hurricanes form (it makes sense because it is convection but such questions are confusing for geographers because the diagram in the paper was incorrect).

What's the use of learning the general principles of science without knowing their applications in our lives?

Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
You talk about education before university like it doesn't matter but exams are what decide who is good enough to go to which university so they are inseparably linked.

It doesn't matter much, no. I went from one opposite (linguistic studies) to another (biomedical/biochemical studies). Besides, where I live, anyone can go to university or college. Tuition fees are around... €80, and syllabi for one year €500. State pays. The only thing you need is a secondary school diploma, and only about 10% of pupils leave school without one. It wasn't as if they were gonna make it in uni anyway.

Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
I hope that covers everything and makes some sort of sense. Thank you for reading. I am going to do some more revision for the chemistry exam I have in about 5 hours from now.

Good luck with your exam, there are a lot of tutoring sites out there if you have questions, and I'm sure some folks in #toribash might be able to help you out.
f=m*a syens
Originally Posted by Arglax View Post
Do you mean dehydration, perhaps?

We learn both hydration of ethene into ethanol and dehydration of ethanol into ethene.
Originally Posted by Arglax View Post
he numbers don't matter, but the process does.

we still learn the numbers. This is my complaint, we are learning things which do not matter and don't aid scientific understanding.


Originally Posted by Arglax View Post
What's the use of learning the general principles of science without knowing their applications in our lives?

I agree with you a bit here. But not all learning is useless without knowledge of its application.


Originally Posted by Arglax View Post
It doesn't matter much, no.

Ok, maybe what we learn doesn't matter, but this leaves the question of why we spend so long learning it.

Thank you for reading.
Good morning sweet princess
Originally Posted by protonitron View Post
We learn both hydration of ethene into ethanol and dehydration of ethanol into ethene.

You are correct, yes, I was confused.

*edit: I WAS correct. Ethanol -> Ethene via dehydration. You put 'hydration of ethanol'.
Last edited by Arglax; Jun 20, 2014 at 01:53 AM.
f=m*a syens
I don't think you got anything wrong to be honest. The mistake was mine. I should have said "the hydration of ethene into ethanol" since ethanol isn't hydrated. Ethanol is indeed dehydrated rather than hydrated.

Anyway it turns out you were right about all the temperatures and pressure. The exam covered about a 20th of the knowledge most of kids taking the exam in my school had revised. This has lead me to another relevant question(z) "how hard should exams be? Should the exams be intentionally tiring or should they be as easy and effortless as possible?"
Good morning sweet princess
Please specify which education system. There are many and just saying "the" isn't sufficient.
Good morning sweet princess
I guess it's time for a boring approach to this. Hoorah.

Currently in American schools, and through my own knowledge, the educational system runs off of a system of standardized tests, in which students across the country are given short little check-up 'tests' in order to evaluate a general idea of what education needs to focus on.
And this of course, as you may have already guessed, absolutely blows.

The schools, both local and nation wide, are pushing too much focus onto solving educational issues en masse, instead of allowing certain individuals the special attention that they deserve. Because of this, exceptional students have no way to let their talents flourish, while your typical students simply drone around in the very same 'advanced placement' courses.

The United States is trying so hard to make EVERY. SINGLE. STUDENT. a college graduate while, at the same time, ruining those very same chances for particularly gifted students (May it be in the form of extremely high tuition, or recently changed acceptation guidelines, which are becoming even more strict.).

This brings me to,
Do you support and approve of your countries education system?
The answer is already obvious, I guess.
Though I would like to bring praise upon the German education system. Even though it's not perfect in the slightest, it does handle a good bit of issues much more efficiently.
For starters, there's actually a separate school for children wanting to attend college, so that's a plus one.
And two... They actually incorporate the importance of artisans! Yes! They actually allow students the choice to, if they are not interested in a farther education, train themselves in a certain skill! They're able to skip nearly six years worth of being force-fed information they may never need, and instead, get to spend only a portion of that time focusing on what they'll be doing for the rest of their lives. Not only does this easily give students access to career opportunities upon graduating, in the form of apprenticeship and so on, but it even stifles the economy with a steady flow of private business.
Of course, I'm saying this from my own knowledge of German culture, so I may be confusing bits and pieces here and there, but still.

I suppose I've always favored educational systems that give students more options over the last, but at the same time I honestly can't see anything wrong arising from doing so.

Apologies for the sloppily written position/possibly slaughtered information by the way. I've been up for quite a while. My judgement isn't quite the best.
Last edited by Skolfe; Jun 15, 2014 at 07:01 PM.
Although I respect the want for more freedom in the education system but you can always just stop going and pursue your ambitions elsewhere using different resources. The education system can only provide so much help with its limited resources so it is pretty impossible for the needs of every student to be covered to a decent standard.

I agree with the point that the system should focus more on useful skills rather than completely ignoring profession based syllabuses but it is still probably possible to stop going to school and get an apprenticeship in whatever profession seems logical. I think this process should be more respected than it is in current society (we assume dropping out of school means you are stupid) but to incorporate it into education would be too costly.

I finished my exams today and I am struggling with lining up my thoughts so they make sense so I apologise if thus post is as illegible as Deak's drunk posts.
Good morning sweet princess
Originally Posted by Skolfe View Post

This brings me to,
Do you support and approve of your countries education system?
The answer is already obvious, I guess.
Though I would like to bring praise upon the German education system. Even though it's not perfect in the slightest, it does handle a good bit of issues much more efficiently.
For starters, there's actually a separate school for children wanting to attend college, so that's a plus one.
And two... They actually incorporate the importance of artisans! Yes! They actually allow students the choice to, if they are not interested in a farther education, train themselves in a certain skill! They're able to skip nearly six years worth of being force-fed information they may never need, and instead, get to spend only a portion of that time focusing on what they'll be doing for the rest of their lives. Not only does this easily give students access to career opportunities upon graduating, in the form of apprenticeship and so on, but it even stifles the economy with a steady flow of private business.
Of course, I'm saying this from my own knowledge of German culture, so I may be confusing bits and pieces here and there, but still.


I am from Germany and have to say your views are rather distorted. The German school system works like this:
You go to elementary school for four years. After those four years the class teacher decides which schoolform you will go to. The schools are Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium.
There is also something called Gesamtschule, but that's not important right now.
Hauptschule is pretty much for dumb kids, Realschule for average kids, and Gymnasium for smart kids.
The school the teacher assigns you to will pretty much influence you for the rest of your life, at an age of 9-11, and you don't even have a say about it. Some states may handle it differently, but the one I live in does it like that.
Hauptschule ends at year 10. Graduates get both a Certificate of Secondary Education and the Secondary School level I certificate, which is the same as Realschule. I don't really see a point in that.
Realschule ends after year 10 as well, and after that you have the option to go to a Gymnasium to graduate there after another 3 years.
The Gymnasium gives you the opportunity to leave school after year ten, in which you also get the Secondary School level 1 certificate. Alternatively you can stay for another 3 years and get the university-entrance diploma.

If you fail in one school form you get sent to a lower one. You may also go to a higher one if you excel at school, but that is very rare, statistically.
Another problem is the reputation that comes with those schools. 20 years ago there was nothing wrong with graduating from a Hauptschule, but these days students from those schools are considered not very functional by many people..
In general the system does not really work efficiently anymore. It may have been a good one back in the days, but as of now it does more harm than it does good.
Also, where does it say that you can skip 6 years? ;o You are obligated to go to school for ten years, depending on the state.
If you do not do that the school may inform the police and get you picked up.
After those ten years you may go for an apprenticeship training position if you don't want to go to school anymore.

I personally think that it would be more efficient to keep people in elementary school until they are averagely 15 years old and then let them decide what kind of future they might want. Then they could decide what form of school they would like to attend. Dunno if that would be work. I am hardly qualified to make such statements.
Last edited by Redundant; Jun 16, 2014 at 05:34 PM.
How are you?