Originally Posted by ZENBOY123
For 9/11 I say it's fair retaliation since the group hated the government and bombed the civilians
The group didn't bomb civilians, they flew planes into buildings. The group was lead by a Saudi national heading a group based in Afghanistan, yet we invaded Iraq. The group is also a minority of both countries and claimed no cities, yet we bombed cities anyways. So get your statements right, and no, it was not a fair retaliation.
Originally Posted by ZENBOY123
And America is just trying to help who they feel is right along with assisting the U.N. in achieving world stability by eliminating over-aggresive countries. Many want freedom but their actions make it harder for them to be granted since they are too aggresive with attacks especially because it endangers civilians and since they don't care they appear inhumane and Americans will intervene to save the civilians such as in Iraq or Bagdhad.
Yet we will do nothing to Israel, which has a history of encroaching on the territory of their neighbors and routinely discriminates against non-Jewish Israelis. And Baghdad is the capital of Iraq.
Originally Posted by ZENBOY123
Also the Operations was literally called Iraqi Freedom Fates.
This just in, naming your operation something pleasant sounding makes it morally right. Hitler should have called gassing the Jews something fun like Happy Time Group Shower.
Originally Posted by ZENBOY123
And we could make a Thread saying "Afghanistan's Inability to keep from starting firefights" and talk about how US Troops are risking their lives just to try to protect the Middle-Eastern country from it's own Insurgence because they are too violent and that because of them many US Troops are dying for the freedom of Afghanistan such as US Army Troops and Navy SEALs.
Since 1970, Afghanistan has underwent exactly 3 major wars. First, the war against the Soviet Union, where the U.S. funded organisations in their fight against the Soviet Union, like our good friends the Taliban. Second, a civil war, which was fueled by Pakistani, Saudi, and Iranian interests. Third, the U.S. invasion, where we fought our wonderful friends the Taliban. In all of these situations, Afghanistan instigated the fight exactly once, and that was during their civil war. And we indirectly influenced or caused ALL of these wars from happening.
Originally Posted by ZENBOY123
To sum it up and most can probably agree on this part, America is just doing what they feel is best to help protect you because they care and they mean well. If you feel they have made your home a warzone just bare in mind it is not them attacking, they are merely deployed there to guard the civilians and once they are fired upon they must fire back. If they didn't intervene Afghanistan could be taken over by Al-Qaeda or Syria by ISIS.
Have you ever heard the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? Nobody gives two shits if your intentions were well meaning when your family gets blown up by an artillery shell.
Furthermore, Al Qaeda had no military capabilities to capture and hold territory for any extended period of time. Second, ISIS formed because the U.S. backed government in Afghanistan run by Karzai routinely discriminated against Sunnis, and a good portion of the ISIS army are former Sunni soldiers from the Afghan army. America indirectly caused the birth of ISIS because of the stupid diplomatic decision to let Karzai continue the conflict between Sunni and Shia Muslims.
Originally Posted by ZENBOY123
Political Arguements will always be messy V_V And call it colonialism if you will but don't hate on the winners. Besides it's not like America is an angry country like Nazi Germany back in WWII. America are the good guys.
Colonialism, by definition, is horrible for the country being colonized. It is the systematic exploitation of a colony for resources and capital and exporting it back the home country. That's nothing a "good guy" would do. And winning doesn't exempt you from judgement. Winners are frequently people who made morally questionable decisions.
Originally Posted by ZENBOY123
There is no 100% winning with the populous because you cannot satisfy everyone since everyone has different interests. If the US didn't help then some people would say "Oh this superpower isn't even helping Afghanistan achieve peace.". Everyone has different opinions and beliefs.
Afghanistan had peace. They had an insurgency, but it was generally peaceful for them. Iraq had peace. They were under a dictatorship, but they had peace. It all changed when America attacked. Now they have several active insurgencies, most of which are anti-American and are fueled by the continued occupation of both Iraq and Afghanistan. Apparently we didn't learn from the Soviets or the British and realized that occupying either of these countries tends to result in a severe, protracted guerrilla war with an incredibly proud populace that has always, in their entire history in the region, resisted any foreign occupation to the death.
The Middle East doesn't want America's interference. They want to solve their own problems without a bunch of trifling white men having their say in the matter. The region as a whole has been burned by white men making promises that they don't keep since World War 1. They're tired of Western meddling.
Originally Posted by ZENBOY123
I know some will disagree but I have said my part. If you do not agree then just respect my opinions and beliefs.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some opinions are worse than others. I'm not required, nor obligated, to respect your beliefs if they're made through rose-tinted glasses and fervent nationalism.
nyan :3
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
Youtube Channel i sometimes post videos of other games
Originally Posted by Canada
That's because they get into big situations, unlike Canada.
Let me just stick the American flag up my ass for a moment.
America by far has the greatest military might in the world. We also happen to use our military, fucking shocker right? Now this is gonna sound crazy, but American happens to have allies in the Middle East. I know what are allies right? We also have been at war there provoked by terrorist groups. You guys almost sound like "you got attacked and retaliated then went on and helped your allies who were also under attack? What a terrible crime!"
Also these messes you claim are made are not made by America. Countries make a mess of themselves then America goes in to try and help but those countries then refuse any sort of help and just end up making a bigger mess of themselves. But ya know because America had troops stationed there it must be their fault.
...
@Orcale, thanks m8. Someone had to go point by point but it was above my strenght last night.
@Divine
Are you a troll or did you just ignore everything that's been written ?
Having the greatest military has a cost, using it has a cost, occupying foreign countries has a cost and the government has 18 trillion $ of debts. Do you really think the US government decides to "help" foreign countries out of good will ? or to fight terrorism ? No they dont, they do because the gigantic profit there is to make from controlling the natural ressources of this area of the world is greater than the tremendous cost of stationning there.
The government uses terrorism as a strawman, peace is a false pretext. There's nothing for the US to gain through peace. If those countries were at peace, USA would have no pretext to have their army stationned there, and no way to control those precious ressources without looking like an occupation army, and what would be the point of spending trillions in the military if the world were to become peaceful ? The US (and their allies) thrives on foreign conflicts.
Fixed it for you. They have one ally : Israel. The rest are pretty much occupied countries with military bases at strategical points ; "forced" allies if you prefer. Because if you're not an ally in the middle-east, you get bombed because you shelter terrorists.
Also, what do you mean by provoked by terrorist groups ? less than 10% of the terrorist attacks against the US during the past 30 years have been made by islamic extremists.
Those middle-east terrorists are no threat for the US citizens, they're a threat to the US occupation force and their control of that area, control of ressources.
You'll have to put more efforts into your claim that USA isn't a huge part of their problems to begin with. Even more considering the most influent terrorist group of the last decades (Al Qaeda) has been financed by the US in order to fight the last remnants the soviet union in Afghanistan ~30 years ago ; they gave money and weapons to religious fanatics who were just insignificant groups before the US intervention, and now the middle-east is a huge mess. The US is an occupation force, and they gave money & power to people who don't want them there in the first place, what do you think would happen ?
Why do you think the US have troops stationned there in the first place ? Just out of nowhere, for simple pleasure ?
Life must be ez when everything is either black or white.
Edit : durrr, wrong account. It's deprav.
@Divine
Are you a troll or did you just ignore everything that's been written ?
America by far has the greatest military might in the world. We also happen to use our military, fucking shocker right?
Having the greatest military has a cost, using it has a cost, occupying foreign countries has a cost and the government has 18 trillion $ of debts. Do you really think the US government decides to "help" foreign countries out of good will ? or to fight terrorism ? No they dont, they do because the gigantic profit there is to make from controlling the natural ressources of this area of the world is greater than the tremendous cost of stationning there.
The government uses terrorism as a strawman, peace is a false pretext. There's nothing for the US to gain through peace. If those countries were at peace, USA would have no pretext to have their army stationned there, and no way to control those precious ressources without looking like an occupation army, and what would be the point of spending trillions in the military if the world were to become peaceful ? The US (and their allies) thrives on foreign conflicts.
American happens to havealliesbases in the Middle East.
Fixed it for you. They have one ally : Israel. The rest are pretty much occupied countries with military bases at strategical points ; "forced" allies if you prefer. Because if you're not an ally in the middle-east, you get bombed because you shelter terrorists.
Also, what do you mean by provoked by terrorist groups ? less than 10% of the terrorist attacks against the US during the past 30 years have been made by islamic extremists.
Those middle-east terrorists are no threat for the US citizens, they're a threat to the US occupation force and their control of that area, control of ressources.
Also these messes you claim are made are not made by America. Countries make a mess of themselves then America goes in to try and help but those countries then refuse any sort of help and just end up making a bigger mess of themselves. But ya know because America had troops stationed there it must be their fault.
You'll have to put more efforts into your claim that USA isn't a huge part of their problems to begin with. Even more considering the most influent terrorist group of the last decades (Al Qaeda) has been financed by the US in order to fight the last remnants the soviet union in Afghanistan ~30 years ago ; they gave money and weapons to religious fanatics who were just insignificant groups before the US intervention, and now the middle-east is a huge mess. The US is an occupation force, and they gave money & power to people who don't want them there in the first place, what do you think would happen ?
Why do you think the US have troops stationned there in the first place ? Just out of nowhere, for simple pleasure ?
Life must be ez when everything is either black or white.
Edit : durrr, wrong account. It's deprav.
Last edited by StrkngRbrn; Sep 15, 2015 at 07:25 PM.
Divine, I'm interested in your rebuttals to Oracle's points, since he carefully laid out exactly why pretty much everything going on in the middle east is the US's fault.
All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That’'s how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day.
Originally Posted by StrkngRbrn
Having the greatest military has a cost, using it has a cost, occupying foreign countries has a cost and the government has 18 trillion $ of debts. Do you really think the US government decides to "help" foreign countries out of good will ? or to fight terrorism ? No they dont, they do because the gigantic profit there is to make from controlling the natural ressources of this area of the world is greater than the tremendous cost of stationning there.
The government uses terrorism as a strawman, peace is a false pretext. There's nothing for the US to gain through peace. If those countries were at peace, USA would have no pretext to have their army stationned there, and no way to control those precious ressources without looking like an occupation army, and what would be the point of spending trillions in the military if the world were to become peaceful ? The US (and their allies) thrives on foreign conflicts.
The US's national debt is 18 trillion yes, but their revenue is 6 trillion making it a 1/3 fraction which is pretty small and not a huge overload of debt like you're trying to make it out to be. I'd also advise you to check out this site which shows the debt of countries all over the world compared to the us. They might not be as much in debt as you think, bud.
Next you just go on the make assumptions without having any real arguments. If were at war against a terrorist group or defending an ally were going to station troops in those places. Yes we may take advantage of the national resources and that may persuade us to go over there, but were going to station troops where were defending allies or at war, its not that difficult of a concept.
The government uses terrorism as a strawman? Do you really even know what a strawman is? Terrorism isnt a fucking argument, that can be set up. Them literally coming over to us and openly physically attacking us isnt a fucking argument bud. They literally started the war, and then we took the war to them. We're not going in to make peace, were going in because were at war. The end goal is peace but the current goal is beating them in the war.
Originally Posted by StrkngRbrn
Fixed it for you. They have one ally : Israel. The rest are pretty much occupied countries with military bases at strategical points ; "forced" allies if you prefer. Because if you're not an ally in the middle-east, you get bombed because you shelter terrorists.
We have several allies thanks, and seeing as the middle east is a high conflict zone we have troops over there constantly to defend them.
Originally Posted by StrkngRbrn
Also, what do you mean by provoked by terrorist groups ? less than 10% of the terrorist attacks against the US during the past 30 years have been made by islamic extremists.
Those middle-east terrorists are no threat for the US citizens, they're a threat to the US occupation force and their control of that area, control of ressources.
You ever heard of 9/11 bud? Like?......
Originally Posted by StrkngRbrn
You'll have to put more efforts into your claim that USA isn't a huge part of their problems to begin with. Even more considering the most influent terrorist group of the last decades (Al Qaeda) has been financed by the US in order to fight the last remnants the soviet union in Afghanistan ~30 years ago ; they gave money and weapons to religious fanatics who were just insignificant groups before the US intervention, and now the middle-east is a huge mess. The US is an occupation force, and they gave money & power to people who don't want them there in the first place, what do you think would happen ?
That was before they were a Islamic extremist/terrorist group and since they've turned all funding has been cut off. We funded them to help overthrow their corrupt governement but since then they've been unable to handle the power and have become corrupt themselves. You also act like the US is the only country who has done this, two other notable countries who have done something similar is Australia funding al-Shabaab and Germany funding Hamas.
Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare
Divine, I'm interested in your rebuttals to Oracle's points, since he carefully laid out exactly why pretty much everything going on in the middle east is the US's fault.
I'm not debating w/ oracle since hes mainly talking to zenboy. I'm directly replying to deprav's response to me.
Last edited by Divine; Sep 16, 2015 at 12:32 AM.
Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
From now on we are teammates here :P Like Divine said they can't argue that there is terrorism there as an excuse to steal resources as there are actually terrorists there which are behaving in an extremely obvious mannor. Sure the US takes some resources but like Divine said they started the war by attacking our homeland and now we are taking the war to them and taking advantage of the strategically correct oportunity to take advantage of the resources there before the terrorists/enemies do. Like Divine said(Sorry if I seem to just quote your whole post XD) if they declare war on us or an ally then we go attack them by stationing troops or defend the land they are attacking by occupying troops at said place, it's basic warfare it's so simple, if they attack and declare war we send troops to attack them back to win the war. It has been happening forever in every war since the beginning of time even excluding human wars. Ants send troops to attack enemy bases. You can't argue with the way a war works Deprav since it's very basic, they hit us, we hit them, we repeat that process again and again until someone wins and then both parties stop hitting. We will use resources at their country while we are there but that's they're fault for starting the conflict which caused us to occupy their country. It's not the fault of the US if they gave Al-Qaeda weapons and then Al-Qaeda went corrupt, they were assisting who they thought was their ally. Like Divine said they started the war so we took the war to them and when it is all over we will achieve peace. Well I covered all of Divine's amazing and accurate post 
Sorry if I quoted all your points they were really good points to this Discussion so I just had to quote them.
