Secret Santa 2024
wibblefox: You're right about overmoderation, but that wasn't my point anyways. When I talk about staff engagement I'm talking about everyone in a higher rank doing something to encourage good quality discussions in the community. Like starting threads, telling people what they are doing wrong and how they can improve instead of being blatantly sarcastic about someones' mistake, things like that.

About your second point you're right too, the vast majority of discussions turns into fist fights with no real arguments, I kind of mentioned that behavior in my post as well. It's too bad that you have displayed this exact type of behavior in a recent thread. (Clinton vs Trump? 2016 POTUS)

It's hard to keep a good discussion with people that are not actually aligned with that desire, but feeding them hurts the community as well.
Originally Posted by wibblefox View Post
Overmoderation kills communities because it's just too much of a pain in the ass to post. There is plenty of activity but any active threads get locked and people get infracted. In the end no one wants to post because it's no fun. Just look at offtopic if you want to see the cancer that is staff.

Also in discussion people just want to talk shit instead of having a proper discussion, they think it's all about winning and force feeding their opinion to others. You end up with shitters arguing asinine and irrelevant points just so they can feel "right".

I more or less agree here. It's always seemed a little ironic to me that you will get infracted for not staying staying on topic in the offtopic board. Typically I just cba to post there because of the standards

the whole point by point thing in discussion is real double edged sword. it's efficient for dissecting arguments with someone, but you also get what small and pig have been doing the last couple days, arguing whether or not Turkey is a western country for whatever reason. it's easy to get distracted and argue, like pig said, totally asinine and irrelevant points.

although you aren't the best carrier of this message, i think you enjoy trolling in discussion more than anyone else ;p
Since it was brought up I have to address it don't it?

You two got it wrong I'm the Hero of Logic and Justice.
If you have minions in your avy or sig DO NOT REPLY TO MY POSTS
It seems like there's a trend to complain about overmoderation, but people are quicker to complain than to actually propose something constructive.
Taking everyone's favorite example, Off-topic. It's made for casual talk, that doesn't need to fulfill any higher purpose than entertainment. But, there are standards, to keep it from being like wibbles. Why do we want to keep a standard higher than wibbles? Because we don't want unregulated hostility around the board. (Toriprime is both an exception and a perfect example of why we don't want wibbles in OT. People make stupid threads and insult each other, all in good fun for the people who are in on the joke, but not a very nice environment for people who aren't).
The only real standard the board has is that you can't make one word posts or circlejerk the the same answer all across the thread (that's why rule D was added). I don't think that's too much to ask.
We do close threads that aren't good for casual talk. Birthday threads, stupid threads and whatever, but that's a different matter.

As for other boards, for example market, replays, art, and suggestions, they do fulfill a higher purpose, and that purpose dictates the rules.
Discussion seems like cancer to me because of the users, not because of any overmoderation. I don't frequent the board though, so I wouldn't know.
Last edited by Lazors; Aug 21, 2016 at 10:04 PM.
Brendan (he who passeth judgement on the frequent changing of signatures): I don't do hentai anymore
Originally Posted by Lazors View Post
It seems like there's a trend to complain about overmoderation, but people are quicker to complain than to actually propose something constructive.
Taking everyone's favorite example, Off-topic. It's made for casual talk, that doesn't need to fulfill any higher purpose than entertainment. But, there are standards, to keep it from being like wibbles. Why do we want to keep a standard higher than wibbles? Because we don't want unregulated hostility around the board. (Toriprime is both an exception and a perfect example of why we don't want wibbles in OT. People make stupid threads and insult each other, all in good fun for the people who are in on the joke, but not a very nice environment for people who aren't).
The only real standard the board has is that you can't make one word posts or circlejerk the the same answer all across the thread (that's why rule D was added). I don't think that's too much to ask.
We do close threads that aren't good for casual talk. Birthday threads, stupid threads and whatever, but that's a different matter

Simply not true, for years people have been offering suggestions which have been ignored.

Do you understand that your vague reasoning of "we want to keep a standard higher than wibbles" is just an excuse to totally ignore all suggestions?

What is inherently wrong with people making 1 word posts? What is wrong with people circle jerking? What is wrong with casual talking? What is wrong with birthday threads, game threads, threads made purely for fun? What is wrong with people using the forum just to have fun and talk to friends?!

Offtopic is especially bad because almost every rule exists because of lazy moderators.

Here's a prime example: http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=570487
A thread that could possibly lead to people discussing a difference of opinion? SHUT IT DOWN, they might flame!!!! Omfg who gives a shit, if they flame infract them, but just let people talk.

Just look through offtopic, very few threads are closed for legitimate reasons, very few moderator actions are actually beneficial.

Here's some suggested new rules for you:
A. Keep it clean, no spam. (and by spam I mean actual spam, not "this is an excuse for me to delete any post I don't like")
B. No discussion of Warez or account selling of any kind.
C. Keep it clean. The majority of the forum is under 18.

Why you people think that wibbles is a bad thing is beyond me. It was by far the most active, fun, and successful board in Toribash history, by an absolutely massive margin. The current offtopic is the product of lazy mods and bad mods, and would have been fixed a long time if egos weren't involved.
If you have minions in your avy or sig DO NOT REPLY TO MY POSTS
Originally Posted by Lightweight View Post
show me everything that has been implemented in the past year from the suggestions board

I thought this was a problem too. So I made a suggestion thread aimed at increasing transparency about this and my suggestion was actually approved. So now, every time a thread gets given priority by devs, or becomes implemented, the thread title gets tagged. This makes it easy to track whether any ideas are getting put into effect. It's only been a few months since then, but so far no other ideas have been implemented (or someone forgot to update the thread titles with the [Implemented] tag).

I don't have any way of tracking implemented suggestions before the new tag system. You'd have to read through hundreds of threads to figure it out.

Originally Posted by Lazors View Post
Discussion seems like cancer to me because of the users, not because of any overmoderation. I don't frequent the board though, so I wouldn't know.

Discussion definitely doesn't suffer from this. I engage a laissez-faire approach to modding Discussion and my current modding partner isn't active enough to overmoderate.

On the cancer users thing... That's mostly bullshit now. There's maybe 2 or 3 members that act nasty here, everyone else is able to participate in discussions without shit turning hostile. You don't frequent the board though, so you wouldn't know.

Discussion has an outdated bad rep in this community. Sure, there's a shitfest every now and again but it's not nearly as common as it used to be. I think if everybody cast aside their outdated prejudices and gave Discussion another shot they'd find it's not nearly as cancererous as they thought. The more people that do this, the less proportionally cancerous the board would be.
Last edited by Ele; Aug 22, 2016 at 04:30 PM.
Originally Posted by Lightweight View Post
show me everything that has been implemented in the past year from the suggestions board

You're missing my point entirely. If you think we're better off without the suggestions board that's another discussion for another time, but comparing it to off-topic it's not there for casual conversation.

Simply not true, for years people have been offering suggestions which have been ignored.

Do you understand that your vague reasoning of "we want to keep a standard higher than wibbles" is just an excuse to totally ignore all suggestions?

I can't answer for the suggestions you're talking about. I'm only one recent staff member and all I remember seeing are vague complaints about off-topic being harshly moderated with no substance.

What is inherently wrong with people making 1 word posts? What is wrong with people circle jerking? What is wrong with casual talking? What is wrong with birthday threads, game threads, threads made purely for fun? What is wrong with people using the forum just to have fun and talk to friends?!

I answered this already but I'll try to be more clear. If you look at the loosely moderated sections of the forum (clan discussion and toriprime comes to mind), you'll see that they are the most hostile places in the forum. I think it's inevitable, people like to test each others limits to get closer to them and it's just part of the internet jargon. Most of it is a small cult of people who like to insult each other for fun. Whether it's a clan of people or the sorry bunch in toriprime, it's a smaller community that are in on the jargon. And there's nothing wrong with that, but to someone who's not in on the jargon it's a lot more excluding. When it comes to off-topic, it needs to be a place that doesn't make people uncomfortable posting.
Plus, if you want to chat there's both irc and clan discussion. If you want the kind of low content that are in chat messages, it makes more sense to use a chat system instead of a forum for that.
I might be exaggerating though, the more I think about it I realise I'm not necessarily against a looser OT if people can behave and not be awful to each other. Toriprime have [serious] tags and even if nobody uses them, they're there for people who want a serious topic. There's no reason it wouldn't be the same in Off-topic.


You were complaining about a rule in gaming chat and not in off-topic. I see your point there and have little to add. The rule is probably as old as 2011 and might have sticked around simply for the sake of sticking around. I don't know why it would still be relevant and we had a recent thread that managed a similar topic well.

If I were to make a counter offer to the OT rules:
A. We do not allow useless threads. Your thread must have an obvious topic with room for some Discussion. Examples of useless threads include: Birthday threads, leaving threads coming back threads...etc. (addressed at threads that have to do with one user in particular. Encourages the same reply over and over again, which makes for boring threads, if your threads involve everyone, it's a different matter)
D. If the Original Post is a question, do not just reply with just an answer, but also explain your answer. (this is addressed to topics that encourage a yes/no answer and nothing else. Makes for really boring threads)
E. Keep it clean, no spam.
G. No discussion of Warez or account selling of any kind.
H. Keep it clean. The majority of the forum is under 18.

Most of these rules are basically the same. They're there to keep a standard, so that every post isn't a one sentence post about approving/disapproving of the subject. I wouldn't mind, for example, if someone made a thread asking how everyone's day was, as long as people give good, genuine response. Even if someone diverged entirely from the topic, as long as the responses are genuine. That's why I removed the rules that addressed this.


Why you people think that wibbles is a bad thing is beyond me. It was by far the most active, fun, and successful board in Toribash history, by an absolutely massive margin. The current offtopic is the product of lazy mods and bad mods, and would have been fixed a long time if egos weren't involved.

I don't have any strong opinion of wibbles, although I have toriprime to compare to. I'm using wibbles as loosely moderated chatting in this case.


Sorry for slandering your board, Ele. I've had bad experiences in the past but you're probably right in that it's better now.
Brendan (he who passeth judgement on the frequent changing of signatures): I don't do hentai anymore
Originally Posted by Lazors View Post
I answered this already but I'll try to be more clear. If you look at the loosely moderated sections of the forum (clan discussion and toriprime comes to mind), you'll see that they are the most hostile places in the forum. I think it's inevitable, people like to test each others limits to get closer to them and it's just part of the internet jargon. Most of it is a small cult of people who like to insult each other for fun. Whether it's a clan of people or the sorry bunch in toriprime, it's a smaller community that are in on the jargon. And there's nothing wrong with that, but to someone who's not in on the jargon it's a lot more excluding. When it comes to off-topic, it needs to be a place that doesn't make people uncomfortable posting.

1. I don't agree with your assertion. TP and VIP were great fun and very communal when I was there. I haven't seen a clan discussion thread that is hostile ever. I think you should quit your clan if they are bullying you in your own clan thread.
2. Flaming is already banned, so why do you need all these other rules? "Oh god we can't have '3 word story' threads because THERE MIGHT BE HOSTILITY!" It's an absolutely terrible attitude to have, and it has lead to all kinds of fun things being banned because over zealous moderators are afraid of having to do their job.

Originally Posted by Lazors View Post
Plus, if you want to chat there's both irc and clan discussion. If you want the kind of low content that are in chat messages, it makes more sense to use a chat system instead of a forum for that.

Ok? So what is the point of the forum then, just move everything to irc and clans...... Don't be silly, everyone knows irc and clan discussion is not the same as the general subforum...

Originally Posted by Lazors View Post
I might be exaggerating though, the more I think about it I realise I'm not necessarily against a looser OT if people can behave and not be awful to each other. Toriprime have [serious] tags and even if nobody uses them, they're there for people who want a serious topic. There's no reason it wouldn't be the same in Off-topic.

People cannot decide what is and isn't posted in their thread. If someone posts something "not serious" then just ignore it. Don't let your OCD to reply to ever post dictate the rules.

I think you realise that this argument makes no sense though.

Originally Posted by Lazors View Post
You were complaining about a rule in gaming chat and not in off-topic. I see your point there and have little to add. The rule is probably as old as 2011 and might have sticked around simply for the sake of sticking around. I don't know why it would still be relevant and we had a recent thread that managed a similar topic well.

Not sure what you are talking about but all of what I mentioned is about offtopic.

Originally Posted by Lazors View Post
If I were to make a counter offer to the OT rules:
A. We do not allow useless threads. Your thread must have an obvious topic with room for some Discussion. Examples of useless threads include: Birthday threads, leaving threads coming back threads...etc. (addressed at threads that have to do with one user in particular. Encourages the same reply over and over again, which makes for boring threads, if your threads involve everyone, it's a different matter)

What is the point of this rule, it's offtopic.

Are you really that worried that birthday threads or game threads are going to lead to hostility? If you are so damn worried about hostility just say "no hostility", stop making proxy rules...

Just because a thread is 'boring' to you doesn't mean it should be banned. There are a lot of people here and people find different things interesting. Stop imposing your personal opinion over the entire userbase...

Originally Posted by Lazors View Post
D. If the Original Post is a question, do not just reply with just an answer, but also explain your answer. (this is addressed to topics that encourage a yes/no answer and nothing else. Makes for really boring threads)

Again, who cares if the thread is boring, if you are so bored just stop reading. Obviously people are posting because they are interested otherwise the thread would just die.

Originally Posted by Lazors View Post
Most of these rules are basically the same. They're there to keep a standard, so that every post isn't a one sentence post about approving/disapproving of the subject. I wouldn't mind, for example, if someone made a thread asking how everyone's day was, as long as people give good, genuine response. Even if someone diverged entirely from the topic, as long as the responses are genuine. That's why I removed the rules that addressed this.

Again who cares if people post something boring or short, it's not a problem, it won't necessarily lead to hostility.

IMO mods should just stick to what ACTUALLY IS A PROBLEM. For example if you don't want flaming, then police flaming. Don't ban and close all threads because you are afraid that "Let's count to 100!" will end in hostility... Seems like mods are just too lazy to do their jobs so they are making rules that give themselves less work even if it's detrimental to the community. If you have an excuse to arbitrarily close any thread you see then you don't even have to read it to see if people are breaking rules, just close everything! And thus we have this terrible situation...
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