Originally Posted by Hxcbbqimo
Satan needs to be created for the epitome of evil and sins to exist. With such, god can show humanity what NOT to do, and compare his right, to the devil's wrong.
And what would be the point of all this experimentation, if he already knows the outcome? Why would he instill a nature in humans which compels them to break some divine rules he has set?
Here is one question maybe the people actively posting here can discuss: Say there is a God, which is all-knowing and all powerful, and therefore we don't have free-will, just the illusion of such, when in reality we are all puppets to the game of life which God has designed for us. Would this or would this not provide a more acceptable, understandable, figure for people to believe in for atheists or not?
Yes, it would.
I can entertain the idea of indifferent (or malevolent) god quite easily, although i still find the concept to be redundant and carrying with it many problems, both philosophical and empirical. Still - it has a huge advantage on christian god as far as believability goes.
Last edited by Odlov; Feb 7, 2010 at 03:09 AM.
"And what would be the point of all this experimentation, if he already knows the outcome?"
Simple: A fortified illusion. God wouldn't want you to believe that there isn't an epitome of evil and sins for you to not abide by. He would want to substantiate his illusion of free will through creating a logical background for his believers.
The illusion God would want to keep up is a very subtle one. Say he were real, that doesn't mean he would want us to know for sure. The best quote I can pull off the top of my head is "(referring about God's work) When you do things right, people won't be sure if you did anything at all". The things being done right being the things God does. This is because by not giving absolute proof of his existence, people's faith and ability to believe and not question God's eternal love and plans for us proves whether or not they are worthy of heaven.
Now the question that's probably provoke in people's heads right now is: Why would he do this if God's plan for you is predetermined anyways? The answer is simple: God is all knowing, and God knows that by doing such, he creates the strongest illusion known to mankind. His plot for appearing that free will is an ability which we possess, his fake repercussion for the actions he says others make for themselves, all lead up to an intricate plan which we have yet to find an error in.
Again, the ideas I stated which you quoted the second time about "that God" isn't perfect, and there are still problems, but I think that it's advantage is unmatched by many other conceptions of this omnipotent, omniscient, spirit.
Simple: A fortified illusion. God wouldn't want you to believe that there isn't an epitome of evil and sins for you to not abide by. He would want to substantiate his illusion of free will through creating a logical background for his believers.
The illusion God would want to keep up is a very subtle one. Say he were real, that doesn't mean he would want us to know for sure. The best quote I can pull off the top of my head is "(referring about God's work) When you do things right, people won't be sure if you did anything at all". The things being done right being the things God does. This is because by not giving absolute proof of his existence, people's faith and ability to believe and not question God's eternal love and plans for us proves whether or not they are worthy of heaven.
Now the question that's probably provoke in people's heads right now is: Why would he do this if God's plan for you is predetermined anyways? The answer is simple: God is all knowing, and God knows that by doing such, he creates the strongest illusion known to mankind. His plot for appearing that free will is an ability which we possess, his fake repercussion for the actions he says others make for themselves, all lead up to an intricate plan which we have yet to find an error in.
Again, the ideas I stated which you quoted the second time about "that God" isn't perfect, and there are still problems, but I think that it's advantage is unmatched by many other conceptions of this omnipotent, omniscient, spirit.
Need help?
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
Originally Posted by Squiziph
[I]While doing that he used his freewill while not being bound by time, in combination with omnipotence ( being everywhere and everything at the same time ) he also is within you and therefore freewill already was ,is and forever will be.
First of all, I think you are confusing terms; omnipotence means unlimited power. The word you are looking for is omnipresence.
That aside, your paragraph hasn't answered my question or offered any viable solution. I am a separate entity from this hypothetical omnipresent god - i have a mind of my own. Moreover, if it's the biblical god we are talking about - I supposedly have responsibilities to him, that alone means we are separate. Neither do I see how our lack of experience with "timelessness" (if such a thing exists) helps the free will defense. Perhaps if i take some shrooms...
Timelessness could just as well be each an every moment at the same time for all we know, we can’t understand not being bound by time, we cannot grasp it, we are bound to certain dimensions therefore we can only speculate from the point of which we perceive, ( I think ) it is one of the strongest points to make for a hypothetic god energy.
Wait what?
Did you just say that the fact that we can't get "outside of time" is somehow the strongest point for existence of god? :|
Let me as you this: why do you think god is necessary?
And in all honesty I just wanted to react because it seemed to me that you thought you are less clueless for choosing not to believe in god.
I didn't choose to not believe in god.
It is important to stay honest about how clueless we actually are and not jump to any silly fanatic conclusions based on 100% subjective perceptions.
I am not one to support gnosticism - I have said numerous times in this thread that i am well aware that neither presence nor absence of god can be scientifically proven as long as he stays as dormant as he is now (assuming he exists).
However, I think a claim must meet a high standard of evidence to be anywhere near as influential to our lives as the claim of biblical god. People vote based on how religious a candidate is, and build their lives and outlooks on social issues around these canonical books.
Why must he design to be able to create, is that because you don’t know any other way? This could also interpreted like you would know how creating anything in timelessness works which I think you don’t.
Well, he is omniscient, no?
He just knows everything, thus all his actions are "shaped" by his will one way or another. One thing an omnipotent god can't do is gamble. If i throw a dice, i wouldn't know what I will get. God would, even if he did the throwing.
You seem to believe this must be, I just take it you made this conclusion never having experienced timelessness and without any insight in such a thing.
I don't think I need to have experienced "timelessness" (what the hell does that mean anyway) - all i need to do is read the bible and see God act in history. Any act requires time to take place in.
Originally Posted by Hxcbbqimo
"And what would be the point of all this experimentation, if he already knows the outcome?"
Simple: A fortified illusion. God wouldn't want you to believe that there isn't an epitome of evil and sins for you to not abide by. He would want to substantiate his illusion of free will through creating a logical background for his believers.
That means people are nothing but means for god's bigger goal - orchestrating a grand illusion. Bear in mind that pulling off this "illusion" would divide people and cause copious amounts of human suffering on Earth, which to me seems incompatible with omnibenevolence, or any kind of benevolence really.
Last edited by Odlov; Feb 7, 2010 at 04:04 AM.
There is bliss in ignorance.
Need help?
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
ig⋅no⋅rance [ig-ner-uhns] Show IPA
–noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.
Hxcbbqimo and a lot of others in here... WHY do you keep speaking like you "Know" what "God" does and doesn't?
These are just a few:
"God wouldn't"
"He would"
"He would"
"he creates"
"God knows"
You say he made the devil to keep up this "illusion" and things of the sort. You would have NO idea... Acting like you know what "God" is thinking/doing, doesn't proving anything... and isn't even a valid form to argue a point...
For all you know "God" could really be created by the devil to upkeep an illusion created by "The Devil"
This question has been acted billions of times... and I KNOW its off topic but...NO ONE WILL ANSWER...
"Why does there HAVE to have been a "God" to have made all that we know?"
also...
I really don't understand how you can say that "God" does in fact exist 100% when all the means to tell whether or not "God" exists are completely outside of the realm of human comprehension...
What would a being of such even look like, and how exactly would anyone know that this "God" even made us in their own image at all?
also...
If "God" made us in HIS image... Why are we not all knowing and omnipotent beings bound by time and space itself...And why isn't he an emotional sack of flesh and bone?...
(Those last few are a bit of rant-like/pointless, but they are honest questions...)
–noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.
Hxcbbqimo and a lot of others in here... WHY do you keep speaking like you "Know" what "God" does and doesn't?
These are just a few:
"God wouldn't"
"He would"
"He would"
"he creates"
"God knows"
You say he made the devil to keep up this "illusion" and things of the sort. You would have NO idea... Acting like you know what "God" is thinking/doing, doesn't proving anything... and isn't even a valid form to argue a point...
For all you know "God" could really be created by the devil to upkeep an illusion created by "The Devil"
This question has been acted billions of times... and I KNOW its off topic but...NO ONE WILL ANSWER...
"Why does there HAVE to have been a "God" to have made all that we know?"
also...
I really don't understand how you can say that "God" does in fact exist 100% when all the means to tell whether or not "God" exists are completely outside of the realm of human comprehension...
What would a being of such even look like, and how exactly would anyone know that this "God" even made us in their own image at all?
also...
If "God" made us in HIS image... Why are we not all knowing and omnipotent beings bound by time and space itself...And why isn't he an emotional sack of flesh and bone?...
(Those last few are a bit of rant-like/pointless, but they are honest questions...)
Last edited by tatsujay; Feb 7, 2010 at 06:27 AM.
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