Toribash
Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
Go back and re-read it because you missed a fair chunk of it. Please read before you post.

Uhh, no. I made a legit point. Respond to it.

"You are either intending to make a baby, or are using contraceptives. Contraceptives aren't perfect, leading to unwanted pregnancies, a consequence of casual sex. The legal contract that would exist in the case of abortion being illegal(except in certain circumstances) would require a woman to give birth."

That is what you said.
Last edited by Ele; Jul 21, 2015 at 06:10 AM.
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Uhh, no. I made a legit point. Respond to it.

"You are either intending to make a baby, or are using contraceptives. Contraceptives aren't perfect, leading to unwanted pregnancies, a consequence of casual sex. The legal contract that would exist in the case of abortion being illegal(except in certain circumstances) would require a woman to give birth."

That is what you said.

A similar legal contract forms every time you have sex consensually. You are either intending to make a baby, or are using contraceptives. Contraceptives aren't perfect, leading to unwanted pregnancies, a consequence of casual sex. The legal contract that would exist in the case of abortion being illegal(except in certain circumstances) would require a woman to give birth. A similar contract occurs when a man has sex, requiring the man to provide for the child regardless of whether or not the man wants to. It's a legally binding principle designed to preserve morality and a decent quality of life for the child.

In the case that abortion is allowed, both parties are free to escape from their legal obligations.

It's like you're purposely avoiding reading things
Hoss.
Their legal obligations don't exist, because a legal contract is not formed when people have sex, with or without contraceptives. The contract is some made-up concept created to support your own opinion of the topic.
No, it isn't.

If two parties consent to sex, a contract is established that the male will support the child(child support) regardless of whether or not a child is the intended result of sex. A woman's obligations extend further than that in various other forms. That's how contracts work. Action -> Legally binding consequence.

If a woman has a child, she has 2 choices. Put it up for adoption or assume the responsibility of a parent and take care of it. An abortion serves as an escape clause for both parties. It isn't a fabrication or an exaggeration, that's just how it works.
Hoss.
Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
No, it isn't.

If two parties consent to sex...

If a woman has a child...

Pick one. There's no responsibility to support a child that's never born. Abortion removes that responsibility. That's my whole point. People are more accepting of abortions nowadays. It's not such a sin to 'avoid accountability' and decide, for whatever reason, to have an abortion. We're living in a world where 'having unprotected sex = must have a child' is no longer true.
No.
Forced abortion has a high mortality rate.
Because of the catholic church in ireland, a woman died trying to force an abortion, a man had raped her.
This is quite a silly topic and has already been answered, the only question is what the latest time for abortion is.
Originally Posted by MintCat View Post
I very much agree with Hyde on this one. It is not just the woman's body when a baby is involved, she has the responsibility to maintain the life of what she's created. Whether it was a roll in the hay, to complete incompetence, she has the moral obligation of having the child whether she likes it or not because that child is entitled to life just like everybody else, and to say otherwise is hypocrisy.

There's this bit here, and then obviously there's all of Hyde's "accountability" stuff too. And the only thing I can seriously ask you both is: why? Why is she obligated? Maybe she ought to, but why would she be morally obligated to do so? Is the potential life the same as an actual one? Where do you draw the line on that one, if you value the potential of the fetus so highly?

When people say that "it's a woman's body, she has the right to choose" they are saying that there is nothing that obligates you to preserve a potential life, that you may choose to privilege your real lived existence over the potential consciousness of another. The decision to abort differs from murder of a day-old fetus because it is necessary to achieve the bodily autonomy these people are talking about.

There's a weird moralistic tone to a lot of the arguments centered on "responsibility" or "accountability." Hyde's "contract" is a weird embodiment of this, enshrining socially constructed ought's into some kind of pseudo-objective "real, tangible concept" that trumps the lived experience of people involved. The emphasis on education/ignorance is admirable, as it is true that abortion can be a pretty difficult process and so preventative measures are always good. However, the fixation on responsibility and the judgement against people he sees as flouting it makes me feel somewhat uneasy given the classist dimensions to reproductive education and contraceptive access. The reality is that even in an optimal world with perfect reproductive education and access, there would still be abortions. Are you going to moralize at those people or help them out?

Edit: And I should add, I see this as more of a public health discussion than anything else. The title question is "Should abortion be illegal?" and the answer to that question is a resounding "no".
Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
No, it isn't.

If two parties consent to sex, a contract is established that the male will support the child(child support) regardless of whether or not a child is the intended result of sex. A woman's obligations extend further than that in various other forms. That's how contracts work. Action -> Legally binding consequence.

If a woman has a child, she has 2 choices. Put it up for adoption or assume the responsibility of a parent and take care of it. An abortion serves as an escape clause for both parties. It isn't a fabrication or an exaggeration, that's just how it works.

you realize people have sex for pleasure right? if you have sex for pleasure you ARE NOT looking to have a child.

it seems like this contract is based off sex meant to create a child.
Originally Posted by cigarillo View Post
you realize people have sex for pleasure right? if you have sex for pleasure you ARE NOT looking to have a child.

it seems like this contract is based off sex meant to create a child.

If you have cis-hetero-penis-in-vagina sex then the woman might get pregnant.

Hyde is saying that by having sex knowing full well that pregnancy is possible, then you should accept the consequences.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
Your guide to morality is "whatever women tell me"?

This is the fallacy known as "appeal to authority", except your authority is pregnant women - which aren't exactly known to be rational or logical thinkers lol.

Why should pregnant women be allowed to dictate abortion law? If I have a ferrari am I allowed to dictate traffic law? If I have a gun can I dictate firearm law? It's a nonsense argument.

Wut morality ? xD I was just making a fonny cuz Hyde said : "A sovereign being has its' own body and aborting it is essentially killing it, nothing to do with the woman's body other than removing the baby"
Saying a pregnancy/abortion has nothing to do with the woman's body is kinda crazy... pregnant women are in pain, they gain weight, their hormones go crazy, the embryo feeds from her body and their vagina get rekt when they give birth. It's easy for Hyde to say abortion has "nothing to do with the woman's body other than removing the baby" . He's not a freshly pregnant girl knowing all the shit she'll go through to give birth to something she doesn't want.

Also, really ? ferrari/traffic laws and gun/firearm laws analogies ? Traffic laws and gun control are about preventing people from hurting/killing each other like the dumbfucks they are. Abortion laws are about personnal choice and medical expertise, being responsible and not pooping an unwanted child in an already struggling society, I don't see who else other than doctors and women, pregnant or not, would legitimately have a say in abortion laws. Legal and medically assisted abortions have been welcomed has a victory for women's rights activists for a reason.
Last edited by deprav; Jul 21, 2015 at 05:39 PM.