Originally Posted by protonitron
Ele, I am skeptical about the relevance of your assumption that intent is less important than effect to this matter.
Effect is always more important that intent, in any matter. If someone says they'll do something, but then ends up doing something entirely different, then it doesn't matter what they said, does it? What matters is the actual effect it's had. That's why quoting the Quran and saying it proves women have equal rights is ridiculous.
Originally Posted by protonitron
Islam as a collection of scripture seems to be acceptable to you (not saying it is or it isn't, this point is entirely focussed on your ideas about intent and effect which should be the same regardless of whether Islam is good or not)
Yeah no, it's not acceptable to me. Don't know where you got that from. I was saying 'even if Islam is all sunshine and roses, that doesn't matter when you look at the result'.
Originally Posted by protonitron
it seems like Sharia is partially dependant on a lot of factors which are not Islamic (one of the many secondary sources for Sharia listed was 'logic' for example).
If you're argument is 'how religious is Sharia, really?' then you've screwed yourself by posting that link in your next post. In its conclusion, it says "Finally, although Islamic law remains religious, as it has evolved in the modern era it has some characteristics that are not dissimilar to western codes."
Then there's the fact that the OIC countries all signed up to rule under the Cairo Declaration which enshrines Sharia. 'How religious is Sharia, really' doesn't matter when the OIC countries agree that all the rights in the Cairo Declaration are to be filtered through Sharia-lens. These Islamic countries are complicit in supporting Sharia, whether or not it's a primarily religious body of law (which, as your link suggested, it remains).
Originally Posted by ynvaser
The emphasis was on the severity of the punishments, and you know it.
If punishment deters people from such bad acts, this world would be a better place.
And you know how much pain the said acts cause, maybe you don't, but they are people out there who have their cars stolen, computers, jewelries, money. I've seen heapes
of cctv of gunpoint robberies in US itself. Imagine how the victims feel,
Also try to imagine when the one true love of the life of a man or women, whom they trust so dearly, sleeps with another man. Can you imagine that? I've heard of stories where they became so broken that they turn to murder their wife and her lover and even suicide.
About drinking, do I have mention how much problems it causes?
Where is justice for the victims if you're going to let thieves and others off easily?
Islam maintains peace and safety for everyone in the community.
Parkour like you've never seen before:
http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=423045
http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=423045
Originally Posted by xlr84life
If punishment deters people from such bad acts, this world would be a better place.
And you know how much pain the said acts cause, maybe you don't, but they are people out there who have their cars stolen, computers, jewelries, money. I've seen heapes
of cctv of gunpoint robberies in US itself. Imagine how the victims feel,
Also try to imagine when the one true love of the life of a man or women, whom they trust so dearly, sleeps with another man. Can you imagine that? I've heard of stories where they became so broken that they turn to murder their wife and her lover and even suicide.
About drinking, do I have mention how much problems it causes?
Where is justice for the victims if you're going to let thieves and others off easily?
Islam maintains peace and safety for everyone in the community.
So does the Code of Hammurabi. That doesn't mean we should follow all the backwards crap it entails.
Hoss.
Originally Posted by xlr84life
Also try to imagine when the one true love of the life of a man or women, whom they trust so dearly, sleeps with another man. Can you imagine that? I've heard of stories where they became so broken that they turn to murder their wife and her lover and even suicide.
You're right. It would be far better if the woman was whipped 100 times or just killed for dishonoring her family. Honor killing is truly is far more just and humane.
We've developed better ways for dealing with shit. Sharia is antiquated and barbaric.
Last edited by Ele; Jan 14, 2015 at 05:09 AM.
Originally Posted by Ele
I believe I'm saying that women not being able to leave the house without permission or being able to seek employment without permission is not mild.
Oh no, need permission! If having to ask permission isn't mild, I don't know what is - maybe having to leave a note?
For the record, I don't consider having to ask permission to get a job as "violent".
Originally Posted by Ele
"The biggest Muslim country doesn't do it therefor you're lying". Link to application of Sharia law by country. All those Islamic countries in blue there have a system where they fully implement Sharia.
That most certainly is NOT the majority.
Originally Posted by Ele
Countries in the Arabic Penninsula have rates of wahhabists in the 40s. Besides, I wasn't the one who first used the term 'wahhabist countries' - that was you. I was using the term for your sake.
Which isn't even the majority.
I was using it to refer to countries that are wahabist controlled, not that have a large number of wahabists. Check your statistics again, the numbers are lower than your estimates.
Originally Posted by Ele
Nope. I'm arguing that most Muslim countries don't accept the UDHR. You said they did once. I said 'who the fuck cares, they don't now, and that's the point I'm making'. We're not having a discussion about Islam 20 years ago. We're having a discussion about Islam today.
Mate, you're right, it is pretty simple. A quick fact check will show you that the reason they split was because the UDHR was too secular, and they wanted a system that recognised Sharia as legit.
Oh hey, you figured it out finally!
You really can lead a horse to water, but sometimes it takes a lot of encouragement to drink!
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
