Not sure if this is a debate or a argument, but if it is the latter, and the quote above me makes me think so.
Guys, why can't we all just along. We all believe different things, but we are all human. stop comparing each others beliefs to yours and others. Rather focus on other issues facing Humanity.
Sure the world would be alot easier to deal with if we were all the same, but we aren't. We are diverse and religion plays a part with that, and its what people do with that that determines our fate ( Atheists and all others included)
Sorry if I am interrupting a normal factual debate, but I found arguing over religion pointless, we are in no position to judge or disprove others.
Guys, why can't we all just along. We all believe different things, but we are all human. stop comparing each others beliefs to yours and others. Rather focus on other issues facing Humanity.
Sure the world would be alot easier to deal with if we were all the same, but we aren't. We are diverse and religion plays a part with that, and its what people do with that that determines our fate ( Atheists and all others included)
Sorry if I am interrupting a normal factual debate, but I found arguing over religion pointless, we are in no position to judge or disprove others.
A Man Of The World...
And i thought he couldn't miss a post that massive. I guess if you try you can ignore even a 2 page long argument *shrug*
And religious 'debate' always turns to an argument in the end. People tend to take this perosnally, but they wouldn't take it very personally if i told them that santa isn't real, nor is red riding hood. Which is just absurd. Both are in books.
But truly, argument about religious subjects is merely mental masturabtion. Both sides (at least i HOPE both sides) will have the underlying knowledge that none will be converted this. Religious people will stay ignorant to scientific facts, and atheistic people will stay ignorant to the word that's written in bible.
In the end, we're bored, circlejerking and pretty much idiots
And have nothing better to do (but at least i admit it)
And religious 'debate' always turns to an argument in the end. People tend to take this perosnally, but they wouldn't take it very personally if i told them that santa isn't real, nor is red riding hood. Which is just absurd. Both are in books.
But truly, argument about religious subjects is merely mental masturabtion. Both sides (at least i HOPE both sides) will have the underlying knowledge that none will be converted this. Religious people will stay ignorant to scientific facts, and atheistic people will stay ignorant to the word that's written in bible.
In the end, we're bored, circlejerking and pretty much idiots
And have nothing better to do (but at least i admit it)
Last edited by Foxie; Mar 9, 2008 at 01:35 AM.
What what? In the butt.
I've read your article, and I'm not convinced. The whole argument from analogy doesn't fly. The complexity of things wrought by human intelligence has no relation with the origin of our DNA's complexity. You can't say there must be an intelligence behind our DNA just because from the right point of view, the situations look similar. And they ARE similar. But that doesn't mean wishful thinking will make your designer idea be true.
And what exactly is the difference between irreducible complexity and specified complexity? As far as I can see, there is none. It's the same story in a new jacket. First it was a watch, then it was the eye and some flagellate, and now it's DNA. Guess you kicked your own door in when you agreed irreducible complexity has already been refuted
Sorry, but this stuff is not science. It's a pick and mix ragtag of different theories blended with a lot of wishful thinking and persuasive writing.
There's a reason why people fit new evidence in with evolution. The reason is that of all scientific theories it is the most supported with tangible evidence. You do know that every scientific explanation for natural phenomena is called a theory, right?
On the other hand, there is no tangible evidence for the existence of god, a higher force, supernatural phenomena, miracles, or anything of the sort. Only the suggestions of people who WANT them to be there. There is also nothing that indicates the existence of such things that cannot be explained by natural means, except scripture (which, as we have established, is not eligible as proof because it argues its own validity) and the testimony of those same people. In essence, you are making a leap of faith by believing what you believe, whereas I am not. Do you understand now? The moment you make that leap of faith, you lose your credibility because you are thinking magically instead of realistically. That is why your logic is faulty, and mine is not. And considering the religious bigotry I face daily, I will not have them compared.
If, after this, you don't realize why my remark was not elitist, but simple everyday reality, then you can keep your apology.
If you've got more of those "scientific" articles, be sure to let me know. I won't enjoy bursting your bubble, but you'll thank me later...
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Legendary_Ninja, I agree with you on the getting along part, but I don't see it happening without organized religion taking a step back worldwide and stop messing with everybody's affairs.
No more poisoning our kids' mind with intelligent design bullshit. Science class is for science. (Otherwise I'll bring up the flying spaghetti monster, good luck arguing against that one.)
The only way this can be achieved is by rigorous enforcement of the law. I mean, I don't see them giving up their power willingly. But until that time, freedom of religion means freedom from religion. And equal treatment for all. So if I can't disagree with religious dogma for fear of hurting someone's feelings, I expect the same courtesy in return.
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Chronos, you link me to an article on a website that contains this piece of slander? http://www.origins.org/articles/cott...austideas.html
How can you expect me to take you seriously when you get your knowledge from such a website?
And what exactly is the difference between irreducible complexity and specified complexity? As far as I can see, there is none. It's the same story in a new jacket. First it was a watch, then it was the eye and some flagellate, and now it's DNA. Guess you kicked your own door in when you agreed irreducible complexity has already been refuted
Sorry, but this stuff is not science. It's a pick and mix ragtag of different theories blended with a lot of wishful thinking and persuasive writing.
There's a reason why people fit new evidence in with evolution. The reason is that of all scientific theories it is the most supported with tangible evidence. You do know that every scientific explanation for natural phenomena is called a theory, right?
On the other hand, there is no tangible evidence for the existence of god, a higher force, supernatural phenomena, miracles, or anything of the sort. Only the suggestions of people who WANT them to be there. There is also nothing that indicates the existence of such things that cannot be explained by natural means, except scripture (which, as we have established, is not eligible as proof because it argues its own validity) and the testimony of those same people. In essence, you are making a leap of faith by believing what you believe, whereas I am not. Do you understand now? The moment you make that leap of faith, you lose your credibility because you are thinking magically instead of realistically. That is why your logic is faulty, and mine is not. And considering the religious bigotry I face daily, I will not have them compared.
If, after this, you don't realize why my remark was not elitist, but simple everyday reality, then you can keep your apology.
If you've got more of those "scientific" articles, be sure to let me know. I won't enjoy bursting your bubble, but you'll thank me later...
------
Legendary_Ninja, I agree with you on the getting along part, but I don't see it happening without organized religion taking a step back worldwide and stop messing with everybody's affairs.
No more poisoning our kids' mind with intelligent design bullshit. Science class is for science. (Otherwise I'll bring up the flying spaghetti monster, good luck arguing against that one.)
The only way this can be achieved is by rigorous enforcement of the law. I mean, I don't see them giving up their power willingly. But until that time, freedom of religion means freedom from religion. And equal treatment for all. So if I can't disagree with religious dogma for fear of hurting someone's feelings, I expect the same courtesy in return.
-----
Chronos, you link me to an article on a website that contains this piece of slander? http://www.origins.org/articles/cott...austideas.html
How can you expect me to take you seriously when you get your knowledge from such a website?
Last edited by Skazz; Mar 9, 2008 at 02:33 AM.
Reason: reaction to leg. ninja, then findings on origins.org
I'm back, I think... :)
Mod Pack
Mod Pack
Originally Posted by Foxie
Many places. But here's a couple since you're too lazy to search (sloth is a death sin)
Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
Look, i put them in numeric order too! Be happy now.
And please, don't feed me the "symbolic!" bullshit argument. It is either in whole, or isn't at all symbolic.
Oh, and about that 6,000 years old, many people who study bible from biased point of view (religious) claim it's an accurate history book yada yada will claim that the earth is about 6,000 years old :P You wouldn't believe how many times i've collided with such a laughable argument before.
They also claim that Grand Canyon, and all the other Canyons, Fjords et.c. were carved during that 40 day flood :P Now Grand Canyon is hard stone, Bauxite, Granite and magnetite (read: the stone with iron ore) and all kinds of other fun stuff. To carve such a massive gorge in the earth's surface is impossible to do even within one year even with modern equipment. No matter how many people and how much funds you would put at it :P
Oh, and to the christian part of the argument; you haven't disproven the flood part yet. Stop avoiding subjects and start proving the arguments. Everyone can be ignorant, that doesn't take any kind of resources. I require proof.
Here's another fun thing to think about.
Name a single war that has not been in any way influenced by religion in any manner. Because i can name many meaningless wars that have been started by nothing but religion's influence on people. Or, as a big bonus moment, name any single otherwise catastrophical event that has been thwarted by belief or any war that has ended because of religion's effect. Hell, i could just put ''name any person that has been saved through religion'' right there, but definition of saved might evade you, so i will not.
I'm all ears.
Oh fuck it, since i'm at this, let's just list a few of other fun things
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. Psalm 104:5
The LORD(not a lady? awww...) reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved Psalm 93:1
The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. Ecclesiastes 1:5 (man. The world revolves alot around humans in the bible. So much that humans aren't animals at all and even the sun hurries quickly to be in time for showing in the morning! It can't be late, now can it?)
Let's go to discworld... no wait, that's on turtles, not pillars... but equally silly statement this one;
He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. Job 9:6
Edgy....?
that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it Job 38:13
What we conclude from here : The earth is edged (4 corners) it stands on pillars, and the sun is rather small and revolves around it in a non-constant speed (it speeds up when it goes under it, clearly!) But wait, there's more!
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. Isaiah 40:22
Earth is both a square with corners in it, and round shape at the same time?! AND A TENT?!
Woo, time to go camping!
Ohk you have to realise that not everything in the bible is to be taken seriously. But if they were being serious about the world being flat perhaps thats because they hadnt any evidence to proove otherwise? I mean if you were around back then what would you think if you saw the world as flat, your not going to think its actualy a sphere are you?
