@Ray:Very good,you have biology aspect of it explained very well.
Let me repeat something and add to it.
A fetus comes from the fertelization of an ovum,right?Your argument is that through killing that fetus,we deprive him from the right to live.But,if it wasn't for the entry of the sperm to the vagina of the women...the baby wouldn't have existed anyway.Meaning that if it wasn't for the "want" of the two people involved in this sexual act,the baby wouldn't have existed.In conclusion,if their was an actual "desire" for the baby to exist,then he would have existed.This case is more related to the case of "oops,I forgot to wear a condom!" in which mistakes happen.There are countless of other situations as well.
Another point is the negative effects which arises from not allowing Abortion which redundant covered pretty well.An increase in the amount of "unwanted babies" ratio will be really higher than the families who are will to adopt a kid anyway.
Let me repeat something and add to it.
A fetus comes from the fertelization of an ovum,right?Your argument is that through killing that fetus,we deprive him from the right to live.But,if it wasn't for the entry of the sperm to the vagina of the women...the baby wouldn't have existed anyway.Meaning that if it wasn't for the "want" of the two people involved in this sexual act,the baby wouldn't have existed.In conclusion,if their was an actual "desire" for the baby to exist,then he would have existed.This case is more related to the case of "oops,I forgot to wear a condom!" in which mistakes happen.There are countless of other situations as well.
Another point is the negative effects which arises from not allowing Abortion which redundant covered pretty well.An increase in the amount of "unwanted babies" ratio will be really higher than the families who are will to adopt a kid anyway.
Originally Posted by Saint
I am really laughing hard at male saying that abortion is bad. How can You know? How can You know how a woman is feeling?
because babies only affect females. ofcourse, how silly of me. Males have feelings and oppinions too, if you dont like that, then boo hoo, go take your self righteousness somewhere else. it adds nothing to the discussion.
when we dont understand, mountains of hate are thrown at us. when we do understand, mountains of hate are thrown at us, because we cant possibly understand and the conclusion that women come to is that we're lying. then when we TRY to understand, then its not good enough and mountains of hate are thrown at us.
we dont know, we CANT know what you'd be feeling, but the point of the discussion was about our oppinions on abortion being ethical or not.
my apologies if that came across as harsh. reactions to recent irl issues.
Originally Posted by MegaCash
Mind bolding where I implied "get it because you can"?
Originally Posted by MegaCash
why get an abortion? Why not just start a family.
Originally Posted by Redundant
uh, because you don't want to?
Last edited by BenDover; Mar 16, 2012 at 01:39 AM.
-=Art is never finished, only abandoned=-
Yes, abortion is very unethical.
Even though the fetus is not born yet, it can still become a human. They have nails already after 3 months into the pregnancy.
Since they are able to become a human, when you get an abortion you prevented the chance of a human-being to live. You're doing the same thing when you murder someone, the only difference is that you actually gave them a chance to live first. When you get an abortion, you don't even allow it to live.
There are not many things that are more cruel than abortion, in my opinion.
I am sure most of the mothers that had their baby aborted regret it and wonder how their baby would've looked, what s/he would have been like etc.
I can't imagine living with that feeling.
Even though the fetus is not born yet, it can still become a human. They have nails already after 3 months into the pregnancy.
Since they are able to become a human, when you get an abortion you prevented the chance of a human-being to live. You're doing the same thing when you murder someone, the only difference is that you actually gave them a chance to live first. When you get an abortion, you don't even allow it to live.
There are not many things that are more cruel than abortion, in my opinion.
I am sure most of the mothers that had their baby aborted regret it and wonder how their baby would've looked, what s/he would have been like etc.
I can't imagine living with that feeling.
[RAWR]SlipAnc: two girls, one Siku
[RAWR]Siku: I was talking about having dicks in my mouth
[RAWR]Siku: I was talking about having dicks in my mouth
Well, this is really a discussion that generates controversy.
When you say: "Abortion is the removal of a life is murder", you rule out the possibility of a girl/woman has been raped, and forced to bear a child that was generated through a sexual assault.
When you say: "Abortion should be permitted in cases of rape", you're going against the religious principles (principles which I abhor, for being an atheist) who claim abortion as a form of murder, break the cycle of life, and things of type.
Anyway, in my opinion, prevent an embryo (a non-thinking thing, he feels no pain) to evolve and be born with an abortion, not considered a murder, and the reason is in parentheses.
Yes, a mother has a strong bond with what she carries in her womb, that is true, but does a woman want to take responsibility for a child that was generated by violence, pain and humiliation?
One thing is certain, if the release of abortion in rape cases did not become law, many women will seek illegal houses to perform this type of operation...
Everything I said above is related to rape, forced pregnancy.
In other cases, abortion is unfortunate, because there are many ways to prevent pregnancy.
One thing is the girl/woman is caught on the street (at home, in many cases), be forced to have sex for not to be killed, pregnant, and abort.
Another thing is the girl/woman to have a child every 10 months for sex without a condom with several different guys, and abort all.
That's my opinion. I am in favor of abortion/I think ethical as the law in cases of rape.
I forgot to talk about the couples, young, who are not prepared to have a child, but my post was too big and the issue is very complex, then that's it.
When you say: "Abortion is the removal of a life is murder", you rule out the possibility of a girl/woman has been raped, and forced to bear a child that was generated through a sexual assault.
When you say: "Abortion should be permitted in cases of rape", you're going against the religious principles (principles which I abhor, for being an atheist) who claim abortion as a form of murder, break the cycle of life, and things of type.
Anyway, in my opinion, prevent an embryo (a non-thinking thing, he feels no pain) to evolve and be born with an abortion, not considered a murder, and the reason is in parentheses.
Yes, a mother has a strong bond with what she carries in her womb, that is true, but does a woman want to take responsibility for a child that was generated by violence, pain and humiliation?
One thing is certain, if the release of abortion in rape cases did not become law, many women will seek illegal houses to perform this type of operation...
Everything I said above is related to rape, forced pregnancy.
In other cases, abortion is unfortunate, because there are many ways to prevent pregnancy.
One thing is the girl/woman is caught on the street (at home, in many cases), be forced to have sex for not to be killed, pregnant, and abort.
Another thing is the girl/woman to have a child every 10 months for sex without a condom with several different guys, and abort all.
That's my opinion. I am in favor of abortion/I think ethical as the law in cases of rape.
I forgot to talk about the couples, young, who are not prepared to have a child, but my post was too big and the issue is very complex, then that's it.
Last edited by Morbid; Mar 16, 2012 at 02:53 AM.
Good, this thread is off its feet.
Actually, my argument is that of ethical philosophy instead of biology. The only way biology would make a difference in this argument is if it found the point at which someone gains person hood, and in conjunction, we would also need an exact definition of person hood in the first damn place.
I can't really see your point. Are you saying that the ethical rightness of wrongness of abortion depends on the situation?
I tend to agree in cases of life or death for either the mother of child or abortion due to rape incest due to the trauma and culpability. The exception is abortions due to convenience. Even if the mother doesn't have the financial security for the baby, doesn't have the stability or anything of the sort, I still think that abortion would be unethical. It is better to be raised poor than to not be raised at all. It really does screw the mother over as well, and my deepest sympathies go to such people in such unfortunate circumstances.
I agreed with redundant, and so with you.
Fingernails =/= person hood.
See, I suggest you to reading my post. There is indeed a difference between ending the life of a person and ending the eventually consequential life in a fetus.
Abortion ends the right of the becoming.
Murder ends the right to life of the being.
My point is that the right to become is, or atleast almost is as important the the right to life. This is so because the right to life = right of being. The right of being cannot be arrived at without the right to become. You must become in order to be. In this case, the process to become is the fetus developing in the womb. Everyone, including the would be children, has a right to be, and in the same breath, to become.
Actually, abortion is quite humane (to the fetus that is, I don't know how humane it is to the woman)
You don't rule out any possibility. You say that it is muder, and is not justified by anything.
Religion very much changes the ethical standard to which we measure things to. This is because of such things as dualism (the theory that people actually do have souls, and the mind is a product of the soul, and that the brain is not sufficient of conceptual thought), and other points posited by religion that secular ethics haven't made. I have never referenced any holy writ in my argument against abortion, so I don't think that that is a problem I have fallen into.
That is why I don't think abortion is murder. You don't need to say that abortion is murder to analyze its ethical rightness or wrongness. See my post.
Right, trauma, culpability, and such are things that need to be factored in in order to justify an abortion
I agree. Situations are never as simple as we make them out to be. I think abortions should be regulated on a case by case basis.
Frankly, this disgusts me. People are going to bring into would-be existence numerous children and end their coming to be simply because they want to have sex without a condom?
Here are some replies to recent posts.
EDIT:
So, after a debate in irc, I decided to make some edits to make my points more sound.
Firstly, my use of "potential" in this was synonymous with "eventual" or "would-be" I could see how that may be understood as "possible." I will change this.
Originally Posted by William
@Ray:Very good,you have biology aspect of it explained very well.
Let me repeat something and add to it.
Actually, my argument is that of ethical philosophy instead of biology. The only way biology would make a difference in this argument is if it found the point at which someone gains person hood, and in conjunction, we would also need an exact definition of person hood in the first damn place.
A fetus comes from the fertelization of an ovum,right?Your argument is that through killing that fetus,we deprive him from the right to live
But,if it wasn't for the entry of the sperm to the vagina of the women...the baby wouldn't have existed anyway.Meaning that if it wasn't for the "want" of the two people involved in this sexual act,the baby wouldn't have existed.In conclusion,if their was an actual "desire" for the baby to exist,then he would have existed.This case is more related to the case of "oops,I forgot to wear a condom!" in which mistakes happen.There are countless of other situations as well.
I can't really see your point. Are you saying that the ethical rightness of wrongness of abortion depends on the situation?
I tend to agree in cases of life or death for either the mother of child or abortion due to rape incest due to the trauma and culpability. The exception is abortions due to convenience. Even if the mother doesn't have the financial security for the baby, doesn't have the stability or anything of the sort, I still think that abortion would be unethical. It is better to be raised poor than to not be raised at all. It really does screw the mother over as well, and my deepest sympathies go to such people in such unfortunate circumstances.
Another point is the negative effects which arises from not allowing Abortion which redundant covered pretty well.An increase in the amount of "unwanted babies" ratio will be really higher than the families who are will to adopt a kid anyway.
I agreed with redundant, and so with you.
Originally Posted by Dragonbreath
Yes, abortion is very unethical.
Even though the fetus is not born yet, it can still become a human. They have nails already after 3 months into the pregnancy.
Fingernails =/= person hood.
Since they are able to become a human, when you get an abortion you prevented the chance of a human-being to live. You're doing the same thing when you murder someone, the only difference is that you actually gave them a chance to live first. When you get an abortion, you don't even allow it to live.
See, I suggest you to reading my post. There is indeed a difference between ending the life of a person and ending the eventually consequential life in a fetus.
Abortion ends the right of the becoming.
Murder ends the right to life of the being.
My point is that the right to become is, or atleast almost is as important the the right to life. This is so because the right to life = right of being. The right of being cannot be arrived at without the right to become. You must become in order to be. In this case, the process to become is the fetus developing in the womb. Everyone, including the would be children, has a right to be, and in the same breath, to become.
There are not many things that are more cruel than abortion, in my opinion.
I am sure most of the mothers that had their baby aborted regret it and wonder how their baby would've looked, what s/he would have been like etc.
I can't imagine living with that feeling.
Actually, abortion is quite humane (to the fetus that is, I don't know how humane it is to the woman)
Originally Posted by guyoliveirah
Well, this is really a discussion that generates controversy.
When you say: "Abortion is the removal of a life is murder", you rule out the possibility of a girl/woman has been raped, and forced to bear a child that was generated through a sexual assault.
You don't rule out any possibility. You say that it is muder, and is not justified by anything.
When you say: "Abortion should be permitted in cases of rape", you're going against the religious principles (principles which I abhor, for being an atheist) who claim abortion as a form of murder, break the cycle of life, and things of type.
Religion very much changes the ethical standard to which we measure things to. This is because of such things as dualism (the theory that people actually do have souls, and the mind is a product of the soul, and that the brain is not sufficient of conceptual thought), and other points posited by religion that secular ethics haven't made. I have never referenced any holy writ in my argument against abortion, so I don't think that that is a problem I have fallen into.
Anyway, in my opinion, prevent an embryo (a non-thinking thing, he feels no pain) to evolve and be born with an abortion, not considered a murder, and the reason is in parentheses.
That is why I don't think abortion is murder. You don't need to say that abortion is murder to analyze its ethical rightness or wrongness. See my post.
Yes, a mother has a strong bond with what she carries in her womb, that is true, but does a woman want to take responsibility for a child that was generated by violence, pain and humiliation?
Right, trauma, culpability, and such are things that need to be factored in in order to justify an abortion
One thing is certain, if the release of abortion in rape cases did not become law, many women will seek illegal houses to perform this type of operation...
Everything I said above is related to rape, forced pregnancy.
In other cases, abortion is unfortunate, because there are many ways to prevent pregnancy.
One thing is the girl/woman is caught on the street (at home, in many cases), be forced to have sex for not to be killed, pregnant, and abort.
I agree. Situations are never as simple as we make them out to be. I think abortions should be regulated on a case by case basis.
Another thing is the girl/woman to have a child every 10 months for sex without a condom with several different guys, and abort all.
Frankly, this disgusts me. People are going to bring into would-be existence numerous children and end their coming to be simply because they want to have sex without a condom?
Here are some replies to recent posts.
EDIT:
So, after a debate in irc, I decided to make some edits to make my points more sound.
Firstly, my use of "potential" in this was synonymous with "eventual" or "would-be" I could see how that may be understood as "possible." I will change this.
Last edited by Ray; Mar 16, 2012 at 01:22 PM.
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