I think this is a little on the naive side, absolutely no offense intended. Yes the school system places us in a place that most don't want to be and requires us to learn ''their'' way but it's far from as oppressive as you make it sound. You've even said yourself that people can graduate and still be imbeciles, and that's because even though you're required to be there all school can do is suggest really it's up to the student to waste the education or not.
I also don't exactly understand where schools limit a person's ability to think for themselves, and find themselves through school. There are a plethora of clubs and teams, not to mention libraries with many books outside of the required learning. All able to help someone express themselves and uncover interests, the only way that I can see someone simply being a ''machine'' while going through school is by choice.
Lastly what's wrong with conditioning people to get used to turning in work on time, and helping them grasp the concept of what it will be like in world to be given a task?. You say things like ''enslavement'' and ''soldiers'' but that's what life is...working to pay the bills, unless you're rich. I think teaching the youth how to survive in the real world is one of the best things possible, Jaystar made a very valid point pertaining to this. The one about putting someone without a degree on the same level as someone with a degree, although this is not a guaranteed measure of intelligence it at least shows that they put in the time and effort and somewhat know of what they speak.
I admire your statements, fact is I wish the world were like that...do what you love and you'll be happy. The world however is not so warm, it's a cold and bitter embrace, even those who attend college are not guaranteed to find work. In that sense what are the chances of a bright eyed pup armed with hopes and dreams? in rare cases, extremely rare cases there are those who slip through the crack. However having the attitude that degrees aren't necessary, and that school limits learning outside a structured system is not accurate.
I also don't exactly understand where schools limit a person's ability to think for themselves, and find themselves through school. There are a plethora of clubs and teams, not to mention libraries with many books outside of the required learning. All able to help someone express themselves and uncover interests, the only way that I can see someone simply being a ''machine'' while going through school is by choice.
Lastly what's wrong with conditioning people to get used to turning in work on time, and helping them grasp the concept of what it will be like in world to be given a task?. You say things like ''enslavement'' and ''soldiers'' but that's what life is...working to pay the bills, unless you're rich. I think teaching the youth how to survive in the real world is one of the best things possible, Jaystar made a very valid point pertaining to this. The one about putting someone without a degree on the same level as someone with a degree, although this is not a guaranteed measure of intelligence it at least shows that they put in the time and effort and somewhat know of what they speak.
I admire your statements, fact is I wish the world were like that...do what you love and you'll be happy. The world however is not so warm, it's a cold and bitter embrace, even those who attend college are not guaranteed to find work. In that sense what are the chances of a bright eyed pup armed with hopes and dreams? in rare cases, extremely rare cases there are those who slip through the crack. However having the attitude that degrees aren't necessary, and that school limits learning outside a structured system is not accurate.
Last edited by AzureMage; May 9, 2013 at 04:49 PM.
Present to me the most beautiful woman, and I shall reward you with chronos
It's bright morning and I haven't slept yet so I'll try to cut it to the minimum before I go to bed ^^
It doesn't "limit" : actual schools "waste" the possibilities of a greater state of the human mind (considering what is, and what could be). That's an idea about humanity in general, staying still and refusing to change such things as School (or economical systems etc...) is a waste of our possibilities, because that's what Life is about, possibilities.
Things can evolve in so many directions : some directions are taken out of random factors, some other directions are taken by choice.
Plus as I said, there are many forms of intelligence. Which means "assembly line" schooling might be beneficial for some people, and some other might stay totally deaf to the same form of teaching, and maybe we're missing brilliant minds that would help make the world better.
Reforming school implies that we want to reform the rest as well. Changing the education means changing the way future humanbeings will conceive the world. Maybe we shouldn't be working the way we actually do (I'm sure we shouldn't).
Yep "enslavement" and "soldiers" are what life is for the moment... but maybe educating the minds of the future generations, to make them realise Life is all we want it to be and we're not naturally born to be soldiers for the precious life-time consuming meat-grinder ;p
I'm glad you like my statement. But I'm disappointed you think things can't changed.
I'm not talking shit and hold utopian illusions : "utopia" is a bullshit word that the "Newspeak" uses to make people think we can't aim and hope for a better future. Or that life can't be good in general or I don't know... I hate this word.
"Utopia" is a goal we have to try to reach, just trying is enough, for the future of our specy. And some people need to fight for it since most of the population seem resigned to live in absurd conditions, and even let it rott for the next generations.
As Idontrememberwho said, "what's the point of living to work and get money to survive, if all you ever going to do is to keep on working to do the same thing a bit longer". The world is large and awesome; and there are plenty people to share it with - why wasting your only life for a system you don't like? As a living organism, you're supposed to be born free.
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I randomly found this video, I thought it'd be a cool add to this discussion.
Cause that's part of the problem, how the way we concieve work makes awful teachers, and how education systems are generally fucked up and push teachers to just "mindlessly"teach.
I also don't exactly understand where schools limit a person's ability to think for themselves
It doesn't "limit" : actual schools "waste" the possibilities of a greater state of the human mind (considering what is, and what could be). That's an idea about humanity in general, staying still and refusing to change such things as School (or economical systems etc...) is a waste of our possibilities, because that's what Life is about, possibilities.
Things can evolve in so many directions : some directions are taken out of random factors, some other directions are taken by choice.
Plus as I said, there are many forms of intelligence. Which means "assembly line" schooling might be beneficial for some people, and some other might stay totally deaf to the same form of teaching, and maybe we're missing brilliant minds that would help make the world better.
Reforming school implies that we want to reform the rest as well. Changing the education means changing the way future humanbeings will conceive the world. Maybe we shouldn't be working the way we actually do (I'm sure we shouldn't).
Yep "enslavement" and "soldiers" are what life is for the moment... but maybe educating the minds of the future generations, to make them realise Life is all we want it to be and we're not naturally born to be soldiers for the precious life-time consuming meat-grinder ;p
I'm glad you like my statement. But I'm disappointed you think things can't changed.
I'm not talking shit and hold utopian illusions : "utopia" is a bullshit word that the "Newspeak" uses to make people think we can't aim and hope for a better future. Or that life can't be good in general or I don't know... I hate this word.
"Utopia" is a goal we have to try to reach, just trying is enough, for the future of our specy. And some people need to fight for it since most of the population seem resigned to live in absurd conditions, and even let it rott for the next generations.
As Idontrememberwho said, "what's the point of living to work and get money to survive, if all you ever going to do is to keep on working to do the same thing a bit longer". The world is large and awesome; and there are plenty people to share it with - why wasting your only life for a system you don't like? As a living organism, you're supposed to be born free.
-----
I randomly found this video, I thought it'd be a cool add to this discussion.
Cause that's part of the problem, how the way we concieve work makes awful teachers, and how education systems are generally fucked up and push teachers to just "mindlessly"teach.
Last edited by deprav; May 10, 2013 at 06:08 AM.
Reason: <24 hour edit/bump
Because most of what you said is crap (call it my opinion but I think most people here would agree). I'm going to reply to a select few of your arguments.
Read my posts carefully next time. I never said schools rate people. I said the people that hire students want to compare one to another. Not schools, but corporations, businesses, etc.
Perhaps that's something we should be explaining to 12 year old kids. If that's the sort of "reform" you want, I'm all for it. But so far, you haven't offered one bit of change to the schooling system, all you're doing is bitching. This is what pisses me off, if you have a problem, don't just cry about it, try and offer change. If you can't find a way to change it, maybe you're the problem. In this case, in my opinion, you and those kids who choose to think they're above school, are the problem.
Originally Posted by deprav
School is supposed to teach people, not "rate" them for their future job.
Read my posts carefully next time. I never said schools rate people. I said the people that hire students want to compare one to another. Not schools, but corporations, businesses, etc.
Originally Posted by deprav
Go explain that to a 12 years old kid. Most of the things we learn under 16, we learn them without real critical thinking but mainly by heart to "succeed" school.
For exemple: the history programs are so big you only touch on all the periods, without grasping the entirety of the consequences of the events and numbers you learn. It goes the same for any discipline.
Perhaps that's something we should be explaining to 12 year old kids. If that's the sort of "reform" you want, I'm all for it. But so far, you haven't offered one bit of change to the schooling system, all you're doing is bitching. This is what pisses me off, if you have a problem, don't just cry about it, try and offer change. If you can't find a way to change it, maybe you're the problem. In this case, in my opinion, you and those kids who choose to think they're above school, are the problem.
Last edited by JayStar; May 12, 2013 at 08:27 AM.
Originally Posted by Juntalis
To be fair, unless it's a problem completely localized to the Toribash community, what's the point of debating any of the world's apparent "issues" on these forums? You could have the perfect solution, convince the entire community to subscribe to your particular brand of crazy, and still, that's not going to change a thing. Debating complex issues is important to the development of our beliefs, because it allows us to look at things from perspectives other than our own. To actually benefit from that sort of experience, however, you're required to approach the topic at hand with an open mind. Thing is, in the last 3 years, I can count on one hand how many times anyone has left one of these debates with anything other than the exact same viewpoint they originally came in with, which leaves me a bit doubtful that anyone's really looking to learn anything new. (One of the reasons I usually don't bother with these, since at some level, I'm guilty of that myself) Like so many other communication platforms these days, it seems like people are just using it as a way to continue fooling themselves into thinking that they're somehow special and deserving of attention.
Although I particularly agree with you, I see that mostly on topics that are more personal. For instance, topics depicting religion and politics are most likely not going to sway opinion. But, if you don't attempt to change people's opinions to a better state, then you might as well lay down and die. It's not a matter of attention but more or less a way to express yourself and learn more and more about the world outside and the opinions it has to offer.
Thanks for the brick Juntalis ! it was somehow nice to read tho
Jay :
hmmmm, so should I deduce you evaluate the veracity of your opinions based on what you think most people seem to agree on. That's not particulary productive you know; that might even be seen as a lack of critical thinking. lololo
I do read carefully, but the more I pay attention, the less sense it makes.
It's a discussion forum to share ideas and point of views. It's already a pain in the ass to expose a state of mind on here, so I wont bother writting pages of hypotethical reforms on the whole schooling system to prove you something.
I offered different feelings (than yours) toward school, to which you answered in a previous post :
"Besides, there isn't any change to school because there need not be."
I don't see why I should even bother trying to show you alternative solutions, since "there need not be" (I don't think that's english by the way). Beside, as brilliant as I might be, I don't hold all the answers
. That's how society works and progresses, people put their thoughts together and figure things out together... kinda hard to do when people can't properly think by themselves.
" If you can't find a way to change it, maybe you're the problem. In this case, in my opinion, you and those kids who choose to think they're above school, are the problem"
The "problem" ? and what should we be the problem of ? School ? society ?
Are we the scum of humanity because we ain't following the line and yearn for changes.
I think you haven't quite understood the concept of "democracy" yet : changes and reforms don't come from one person "knowing the ultimate truth"... Changes require shared thoughts and discussion, if you're just gonna wait for someone to propose a miraculous world changing system -well I hope you're comfortable- because "you might as well lay down and die."
If changes happened when we're living as we told and not questioning the actual system, I think we'd know by now.
Jay :
Because most of what you said is crap (call it my opinion but I think most people here would agree)
hmmmm, so should I deduce you evaluate the veracity of your opinions based on what you think most people seem to agree on. That's not particulary productive you know; that might even be seen as a lack of critical thinking. lololo
Read my posts carefully next time. I never said schools rate people. I said the people that hire students want to compare one to another. Not schools, but corporations, businesses, etc.
I do read carefully, but the more I pay attention, the less sense it makes.
Perhaps that's something we should be explaining to 12 year old kids. If that's the sort of "reform" you want, I'm all for it. But so far, you haven't offered one bit of change to the schooling system, all you're doing is bitching. This is what pisses me off, if you have a problem, don't just cry about it, try and offer change. If you can't find a way to change it, maybe you're the problem. In this case, in my opinion, you and those kids who choose to think they're above school, are the problem.
It's a discussion forum to share ideas and point of views. It's already a pain in the ass to expose a state of mind on here, so I wont bother writting pages of hypotethical reforms on the whole schooling system to prove you something.
I offered different feelings (than yours) toward school, to which you answered in a previous post :
"Besides, there isn't any change to school because there need not be."
I don't see why I should even bother trying to show you alternative solutions, since "there need not be" (I don't think that's english by the way). Beside, as brilliant as I might be, I don't hold all the answers
. That's how society works and progresses, people put their thoughts together and figure things out together... kinda hard to do when people can't properly think by themselves." If you can't find a way to change it, maybe you're the problem. In this case, in my opinion, you and those kids who choose to think they're above school, are the problem"
The "problem" ? and what should we be the problem of ? School ? society ?
Are we the scum of humanity because we ain't following the line and yearn for changes.
I think you haven't quite understood the concept of "democracy" yet : changes and reforms don't come from one person "knowing the ultimate truth"... Changes require shared thoughts and discussion, if you're just gonna wait for someone to propose a miraculous world changing system -well I hope you're comfortable- because "you might as well lay down and die."
If changes happened when we're living as we told and not questioning the actual system, I think we'd know by now.
Last edited by deprav; May 12, 2013 at 11:55 PM.
