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Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
Hax you and I both know they are un healthy :P.

I'm sorry? Anabolic steroids are just another drug. They come with side effects which range from completely negligible to a serious problem depending on person to person just like any other drug. Some people can take huge doses and only experience mild acne, some can go to their local nutrition shop, buy a weak prohormone, and experience a world of problems. I'd feel safer injecting myself twice a day with testosterone than I ever would taking plenty of drugs that are on the market daily.

One big difference however is that many people around me who recreationally use drugs such as alcohol aren't doing anything constructive; however, they're slowly killing off their body and putting themselves into dangerous life threatening situations. Anabolic steroid users on the other hand are working to increase muscle mass, make use of the nutrients of their more strict diets, and perform at a higher level. Of course there are the undisciplined steroid abusers who don't work hard, but they are the minority.

Seriously if you want to compare anabolic steroids to either having a smoking addiction or drinking problem, I can do all but guarantee that any doctor would rather find out you're using the oil.
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In competition, one who has access to best drugs wins is not how things should work.

No problem with people using it in other mediums though, go for it.
Last edited by Cheshyre; Oct 22, 2014 at 02:48 AM.
It's about "how willing one is to work" and how far will one go to achieve it. Seems like a setback. It started, nothing anyone can do about it now. Don't try to stop it.
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Originally Posted by Cheshyre View Post
In competition, one who has access to best drugs wins is not how things should work.

No problem with people using it in other mediums though, go for it.

Cheshyre, you really think some average Joe can inject some drugs and is suddenly able to run 100m in under 9 seconds?

That is absolutely absurd.

Originally Posted by deprav View Post
lel gorman. On threads about drugs you're arguing about how much you hate them and how all recreative drugs should be illegal and disappear from the surface of earth, as it's dangerous for health ; and here you're arguing steroïds/drugs should be allowed... !?

What the hell is wrong with you.

There's a difference between using drugs to get high and using drugs to get a job done. Abuse of any substance is not OK, drug or otherwise.

For example, I am not anti-spraypaint, but if you are using it to get high, then I am against that.

Originally Posted by JayWS View Post
Transhumanism is rather disgusting in most of the forms proposed by many of its advocates. So shallow.
That's all I have to say on the matter.

It's hard to imagine what you are proposing. To say that drugs are transhumanists is extreme, what exactly do you define as transhuman? Are people who train and study to become world class athletes transhuman?!
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
Cheshyre, you really think some average Joe can inject some drugs and is suddenly able to run 100m in under 9 seconds?

That is absolutely absurd.

Never said that, but your right that does sound rather absurd doesn't it.

That is good example though...

AVERAGE JOE 1: Uses top of the line drug, trains hard every day.

AVERAGE JOE 2: Takes mediocre drug, trains hard every day.

AVERAGE JOE 3: Does not have access to drugs, trains hard every day.

This is where the unfair advantage will be taking place.

Or perhaps with people just wanting to compete in their favorite sport but don't have access to such things aye.

A competition between AVERAGE JOE'S will leave the #1 with an unfair advantage.
Originally Posted by Cheshyre View Post
Never said that, but your right that does sound rather absurd doesn't it.

That is good example though...

AVERAGE JOE 1: Uses top of the line drug, trains hard every day.

AVERAGE JOE 2: Takes mediocre drug, trains hard every day.

AVERAGE JOE 3: Does not have access to drugs, trains hard every day.

This is where the unfair advantage will be taking place.

Or perhaps with people just wanting to compete in their favorite sport but don't have access to such things aye.

A competition between AVERAGE JOE'S will leave the #1 with an unfair advantage.

You forgot about:

AVERAGE JOE 4: Does not have as good a coach as the others.

AVERAGE JOE 5: Does not have as good dietician or access to as good food/supplements as the others.

AVERAGE JOE 6: Does not have access to the same scientific facilities as the others.

AVERAGE JOE 7: Does not have access to the same fabrics and studies as the others.

AVERAGE JOE 8: Gets injured in practice and doesn't have as good doctors or facilities so has to pull out.

AVERAGE JOE 9: Was born with bad genes.

AVERAGE JOE 10: Wakes up in the morning and decides to enter the race without any training because that's what he believes is "an even playing field".

etc etc etc it just keeps going on forever and ever.

Did you ever hear an athlete say "I don't train very much because it would be unfair to those who don't have the time"?
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
Training, dieting, scientific studies, are not not natural.

So they are natural?

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
There is nothing any less natural about about taking drugs.

There is, though. With a good training & diet etc, you're simply amplifying and stimulating the hormonal cycle and growth of muscle. Injecting hormones directly is most definitely a shortcut to achieving this, vastly reducing the amount of effort needed for the same gain.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
That's not a reason to disallow them. The amount of money required to compete on the world stage is already huge.

Just because the amount of money is already a problem, does not mean that this problem should be aggravated further.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
To an extent, yes, but there is also a lot of banning, even you yourself for some reason consider drugs to be harmful.

There is banning, but portraying professional sports scene as "anti techology" ('it's nearly 2015 and we are still fighting against technology.') is absurd.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
No, they aren't. They can be managed, as they usually are.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...78427405001700 (http://i.imgur.com/TTqZBlt.png?1)
http://link.springer.com/article/10....-00001#page-11 (http://i.imgur.com/j7YD1FQ.png?1)

I took screenshots because I'm not sure if you can access these papers. Bottom line remains that there is still a lot of speculation about acute symptoms caused by moderate use, but long terms, especially cardiovascular effects caused by increased cholesterol levels, are apparent!

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
Should we ban bananas because they can cause irregular heart palpitations?!

No, because nobody is overusing bananas for certain benefits, leading to health problems.


I was wrong here, I thought you were referring to positive selection of certain individuals for certain traits and having them mate (as with the famous case of Yao Ming)

[/QUOTE]
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There's a difference between using drugs to get high and using drugs to get a job done. Abuse of any substance is not OK, drug or otherwise.

For example, I am not anti-spraypaint, but if you are using it to get high, then I am against that.

Dahahaha, man you're just too much. I think it's written somewhere in the forum rules : when you don't know a damn thing about a subject, you avoid participating to the discussion to spout garbages & missinformation. That's exactly what you should do when the main subject of the thread is drugs.

You've never done drugs, you've probably never seen anyone doing drugs, you probably don't know anyone using drugs, I'm pretty sure you've never seen drugs others than tobacco and alcohol with your own eyes.

Fyi, No-one ever sprayed paint on his face to get high, it's a (dangerous) side effect if you happen to paint something in a room with a very bad air flow. Spray-painting your face ain't a thing.

________________________________________



Back on topic, steroïds and other drugs to improve your physical aptitudes for the sake of sport & performance is utterly stupid, it should stay banned from competition forever.

Why people use those ?

Sport & entertainement is a huge money box. Professional athletes who use those drugs probably do it because of the profitable advantage that is being one of the top players or practicants of a mediatic sport, being in the winning team... They do not use for the sake of "pushing the limits of the human race", they do it because they can get a shitload of money out of it, for their clubs/teams too. Also, most of those athletes do it under medical observation, and even with precautions some athletes end up with serious health issues very early, if not dying.

Same thing goes for amateurs. Most amateurs who use those self-improving drugs try to go in the pro-leagues, except they probably use without telling anyone and certainly not a doctor, so they end up fucking themselves up more than they should.

There's no "reasonnably" taking anabolitic steroids, when you want to compete at high level in any sport, you need to be constantly at your top game, which means that if you became a recognized sportsman because you used steroids, you'll have to keep them rolling to stay at your place. And that's is NOT being reasonnable. Using any drug regulary during years will always end up fucking your body up.

Also, to people saying banning those drugs is going against technological advances :

Well first, this is NOT the case, that's not what "going against technological advances" means. For instance, refusing to use camera referee-ing in football(soccer) IS "going against tech advances". Using fossil energy and fuel cars when we could have free clean energy IS too.
Banning unfair ways of winning from the competitive scene IS NOT.

Secundo, you guys seem to forget one of the first rules of sport & competition has always been and still is fair-ness, fairplay, equality for the athletes.
We could compare this to the e-sport scene : why not allowing cheats in competition and LAN tournaments ? aimbots, wallhacks, triggers, spawning items etc... isn't that going against technology & knowledge ? and that would be so fucking interesting...

Anyway, a lot of you seem to think that sport and competition is only about "being the best", winning the maximum of shits and be a star... that's fucking dramatic, you think like perfect products of our stupid douchebag-glorifying society.
Sport fistly is about being in good shape/health... and competition is about measuring your skills to other practicants in a well-spirited sport meeting. It brings people together, around a passion, and no matter if you win or lose, you'll learn something about yourself and how to get better for the next one.
Allowing anabolitic drugs is just killing all of this.
Last edited by deprav; Oct 22, 2014 at 09:30 PM.
Originally Posted by Arglax View Post
So they are natural?

No, they aren't.

Originally Posted by Arglax View Post
There is, though. With a good training & diet etc, you're simply amplifying and stimulating the hormonal cycle and growth of muscle. Injecting hormones directly is most definitely a shortcut to achieving this, vastly reducing the amount of effort needed for the same gain.

Similarly by not maintaining a diet and by not exercising efficiently you require much more effort for the same gain.

And again, that doesn't make it any more natural. I think your definition of "natural" is somewhat different from mine, which would be "existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind."

Originally Posted by Arglax View Post
Just because the amount of money is already a problem, does not mean that this problem should be aggravated further.

I didn't say it was a problem.

Originally Posted by Arglax View Post
There is banning, but portraying professional sports scene as "anti techology" ('it's nearly 2015 and we are still fighting against technology.') is absurd.

Well, this isn't the only case of professional sports fighting against technology, but that's not really what this thread is about.

Originally Posted by Arglax;7675649[URL
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378427405001700[/URL] (http://i.imgur.com/TTqZBlt.png?1)
http://link.springer.com/article/10....-00001#page-11 (http://i.imgur.com/j7YD1FQ.png?1)

I took screenshots because I'm not sure if you can access these papers. Bottom line remains that there is still a lot of speculation about acute symptoms caused by moderate use, but long terms, especially cardiovascular effects caused by increased cholesterol levels, are apparent!

Neither of those articles say that steroids can't be managed.

Originally Posted by Arglax View Post
No, because nobody is overusing bananas for certain benefits, leading to health problems.

So in your mind there are two predicates to determine if something should be banned:
1. It must give a benefit
2. If abused it must lead to health problems
Is that right?

Originally Posted by deprav View Post
Fyi, No-one ever sprayed paint on his face to get high, it's a (dangerous) side effect if you happen to paint something in a room with a very bad air flow. Spray-painting your face ain't a thing.

You can get high off certain types of spraypaint. You don't spray it onto your face you spray it into a bag and inhale the fumes.

Originally Posted by deprav View Post
Sport & entertainement is a huge money box. Professional athletes who use those drugs probably do it because of the profitable advantage that is being one of the top players or practicants of a mediatic sport, being in the winning team... They do not use for the sake of "pushing the limits of the human race", they do it because they can get a shitload of money out of it, for their clubs/teams too. Also, most of those athletes do it under medical observation, and even with precautions some athletes end up with serious health issues very early, if not dying.

Is that a problem? People use all kinds of drugs to get a competitive edge.

You want to ban people from using drugs /because/ they are working for money?

Originally Posted by deprav View Post
Same thing goes for amateurs. Most amateurs who use those self-improving drugs try to go in the pro-leagues, except they probably use without telling anyone and certainly not a doctor, so they end up fucking themselves up more than they should.

Because they are forced to keep it secret.

Originally Posted by deprav View Post
There's no "reasonnably" taking anabolitic steroids, when you want to compete at high level in any sport, you need to be constantly at your top game, which means that if you became a recognized sportsman because you used steroids, you'll have to keep them rolling to stay at your place. And that's is NOT being reasonnable. Using any drug regulary during years will always end up fucking your body up.

You can use steroids just to bulk.

Originally Posted by deprav View Post
Well first, this is NOT the case, that's not what "going against technological advances" means. For instance, refusing to use camera referee-ing in football(soccer) IS "going against tech advances". Using fossil energy and fuel cars when we could have free clean energy IS too.
Banning unfair ways of winning from the competitive scene IS NOT.

Are we banning expensive shoes, training, dieting, etc? I don't think it's a valid argument to say drugs are "unfair" when you let in so many other things.

Originally Posted by deprav View Post
Secundo, you guys seem to forget one of the first rules of sport & competition has always been and still is fair-ness, fairplay, equality for the athletes.
We could compare this to the e-sport scene : why not allowing cheats in competition and LAN tournaments ? aimbots, wallhacks, triggers, spawning items etc... isn't that going against technology & knowledge ? and that would be so fucking interesting...

It seems you are putting the emphasis not on fairness, but on effort. Is there really more merit to doing something that takes longer but is less efficient?

Originally Posted by deprav View Post
Anyway, a lot of you seem to think that sport and competition is only about "being the best", winning the maximum of shits and be a star... that's fucking dramatic, you think like perfect products of our stupid douchebag-glorifying society.
Sport fistly is about being in good shape/health... and competition is about measuring your skills to other practicants in a well-spirited sport meeting. It brings people together, around a passion, and no matter if you win or lose, you'll learn something about yourself and how to get better for the next one.
Allowing anabolitic drugs is just killing all of this.

I think that is a fantasm, but none the less, why would drug use kill this? Seems very non sequitur.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig View Post
So in your mind there are two predicates to determine if something should be banned:
1. It must give a benefit
2. If abused it must lead to health problems
Is that right?

That is not right. Let's take a look at my thought process:

Your statement: "Should we ban bananas because they can cause irregular heart palpitations?!"

My response: "No, because nobody is overusing bananas for certain benefits, leading to health problems."

I think abuse of steroids should not be allowed because people abuse them, which leads to health problems. The same logic does not apply to bananas because, even though they can have adverse affects on health when consumed in extreme doses, nobody does this. There is no reason to ban bananas because nobody is abusing the substance anyway. Just because they could harm, does not mean it should be banned. By that logic, apples, a lot of peppers, and basically the whole array of household chemicals... should be banned as well.

I don't see how from this logic you extract that I think that in order for something to be legal, it should in all cases have a positive effect, even when abused.


Now about the moderate usage of steroids: moderate use IS possible, just like with any drug. Just because moderate use is possible, does not mean that everyone who uses steroids has access to the information necessary to use them correctly. Or even that everyone who uses them has the intention to use these substances moderately. This goes from dosage to proper equipment, ... you name it. The same goes for alcohol, weed, heroin, cocaine, ... Yet you are against use of these drugs. How does that work?
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