If we're set on this automated system, I think I've got a few solutions for you.
Simple fix here. If a clan gets wins an event, yet still somehow receives a strike, cancel that strike. Give clans a specified grace period after winning an event.
Identify which clans are SP clans (or ask them to identify themselves), and then, if an SP clan fails a check, take a quick look at their active members' post history and see if they've posted in any replay threads. If a few have, mark them as active players.
This way, the only time you'd have to do anything is if a clan marked SP fails a strike (since this is triggered upon failure). So once every two months, someone might have to check through a dozen post histories, 20 min tops. Small bit of human oversight.
It'd be a lot simpler than finding some way to quantify posted replays for every clan, as you say. At least for now.
Afaik, aren't the points for active ingame members based on a percentage of total clan members? You need half your members active to get full points? If this is the case, then clans with rosters bloated with old players are disadvantaged still.
"The system punished larger clans because of activity relative to full member count."
It this is no longer the case then disregard entirely
Those sound like good perks to me. The 'custom leader string' and other clan page related stuff strikes me as a bit 'meh' though.
This is a very good addition. If a clan dies now, it must really not care to be around.
@Erth - from the suggestions thread;
>discord servers
I'd suggest running discord checks the same way I suggested checks for SP clans. Upon failure (receiving a strike), check their board for discord. Open it up, see if it's somewhat active, throw 5 points their way.
IRC was once considered in checks because it was recognised that some clans are more active outside of ingame and the forums. I think that sort of thinking is still right with Discord.
One final suggestion: make Powas and me CS. You get brainstorming, you get marketing, you get a slave (me) to do the human oversight. If you really wanna 'bridge the gap' (this ever-widening gap) between the community and out of touch staff, we got that covered. CS would be best S. Consider it.
Originally Posted by Erth
Currently we do not have clan events aside from Clan League. If all goes to plan, that may change but right now there are other things to work on. I would like whatever system we end up with to have the option for those kinds of things to be taken into account. I mention it here for transparency but it's so reliant on so many things going right that it's definitely not a thing for a while.
Gaining extra activity points for participating in Event Squad stuff ingame would be a big plus, and something we plan on adding.
Simple fix here. If a clan gets wins an event, yet still somehow receives a strike, cancel that strike. Give clans a specified grace period after winning an event.
Originally Posted by Erth
Single player is the big one that none of us have really been able to figure out, but it's a priority imo. Single player clans have always been a very specialist area, and under the new system just don't make it, which is a real fuckin shame.
Identify which clans are SP clans (or ask them to identify themselves), and then, if an SP clan fails a check, take a quick look at their active members' post history and see if they've posted in any replay threads. If a few have, mark them as active players.
This way, the only time you'd have to do anything is if a clan marked SP fails a strike (since this is triggered upon failure). So once every two months, someone might have to check through a dozen post histories, 20 min tops. Small bit of human oversight.
It'd be a lot simpler than finding some way to quantify posted replays for every clan, as you say. At least for now.
Originally Posted by Erth
Inactive Ranks:
I know a lot of people have been calling for them, but functionally they serve no purpose with the way the check is done. If anything it would end up hurting your clan because it excludes them from the check, so if they happen to pop by for a couple matches, it won't end up counting.
Afaik, aren't the points for active ingame members based on a percentage of total clan members? You need half your members active to get full points? If this is the case, then clans with rosters bloated with old players are disadvantaged still.
"The system punished larger clans because of activity relative to full member count."
It this is no longer the case then disregard entirely
Originally Posted by Erth
A static official clan server... Forum customisation... Recruitment banners
Those sound like good perks to me. The 'custom leader string' and other clan page related stuff strikes me as a bit 'meh' though.
Originally Posted by Erth
A portion of people in the various threads called out for "a human touch", and I also agree that there should be some degree of human review. As such, I would like to implement an appeal system as a last ditch attempt for you to save you clan.
This is a very good addition. If a clan dies now, it must really not care to be around.
@Erth - from the suggestions thread;
>discord servers
I'd suggest running discord checks the same way I suggested checks for SP clans. Upon failure (receiving a strike), check their board for discord. Open it up, see if it's somewhat active, throw 5 points their way.
IRC was once considered in checks because it was recognised that some clans are more active outside of ingame and the forums. I think that sort of thinking is still right with Discord.
One final suggestion: make Powas and me CS. You get brainstorming, you get marketing, you get a slave (me) to do the human oversight. If you really wanna 'bridge the gap' (this ever-widening gap) between the community and out of touch staff, we got that covered. CS would be best S. Consider it.
Last edited by Ele; Jan 16, 2019 at 06:23 PM.
Originally Posted by Ele
Simple fix here. If a clan gets wins an event, yet still somehow receives a strike, cancel that strike. Give clans a specified grace period after winning an event.
I don't know if giving a free pass to lurk after winning an event is something reasonable. I see where it came from but I'm against the idea of rewarding events with "activity immunity", that's way too specific. They are trying to encourage activity and you are trying to find a way to be active once and then go back to the cave, at least that's how I see it.
Instead of rewarding activity with activity related benefits and/or privileges, they should stick to the perks rewards idea.
Originally Posted by Ele
>discord servers
I'd suggest running discord checks the same way I suggested checks for SP clans. Upon failure (receiving a strike), check their board for discord. Open it up, see if it's somewhat active, throw 5 points their way.
I support this.
Originally Posted by Ele
Identify which clans are SP clans (or ask them to identify themselves), and then, if an SP clan fails a check, take a quick look at their active members' post history and see if they've posted in any replay threads. If a few have, mark them as active players.
This way, the only time you'd have to do anything is if a clan marked SP fails a strike (since this is triggered upon failure). So once every two months, someone might have to check through a dozen post histories, 20 min tops. Small bit of human oversight.
It'd be a lot simpler than finding some way to quantify posted replays for every clan, as you say. At least for now.
I'm not sure about this. I don't wanna discourse too much about my opinion but I think there should be better ideas than this, because it sounds too simple and possibly exploitable in some way (not sure though, I'm just wondering)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't think that matters but I think it would be interesting to have Ele and Powas as CS
<[Vector]Aadame> damn pat with his mod skills
Need help? PM me! Reach me on Discord: Lionet#1325
Watch my Replays!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Need help? PM me! Reach me on Discord: Lionet#1325
Watch my Replays!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Proposed new system:
No major complaints, looks better than the current one, given the state the community is in.
Singleplayer:
No easy way around it. Counting steam hours is abusable, so is just counting the posts/replays. Not only replay-making takes a lot of time, but giving a proper c&c is pretty important as well. You'd have to go case by case, checking activity of clans in their replay threads manually. However, as that's a clan activity we're talking about here, only replays posted in the clan board would be taken into consideration. One does not need to be in a clan to be a replay maker, therefore, posts from replays board would not count. You want the replay to count towards the activity of your clan? Post it in your board, make the members discuss it. It could be easier just to check those threads in clans that identify as mainly single player or hybrid ones.
Maybe you could even automate it a bit, with a script to count posts and replays, with a disclaimer that if an abuse of the system is detected (random checks from CS members once in a while), clan gets an instant strike.
Rating the replays is a subjective thing and I would not go there/wouldn't include that in the process of checking the activity. Obviously, standing still for 500 frames would not fly, but otherwise I would steer clear from going ,,your decap is not good enough to be a proper sp replay".
There is also an issue with people simply posting older replays with new names, slightly edited movement or just stolen one. Unless you were to check every single replay in the thread when the new replay is posted, you couldn't be sure if clan is not just trolling you by posting the same 10 reps again and again.
Inactive ranks:
I get your point, however, some people are not coming back. Even if, by some miracle, f.ex. Azuma resurrects himself from the dead, I'm sure I would notice him shitposting around forums/discord and move him to one of the active ranks for that month. Not counting inactive members for the checks under current system would give us a small point boost. Not enough to argue over, though, so I'll leave it be.
Perks/points to get perks:
Consider giving clans rewards for important events in their history. Clan video or clan picture appeared - cool, not many bother to do those anymore, have some points. You passed an important anniversary? We appreciate you being there, have some more. That'd require some more work from CS but I feel that this kind of personal touch would be appreciated.
Clans are about playing together - give some point boosts if more than 3 players from the same clan gather and play on the same server.
What could slightly improve the competitiveness of clans is:
- introducing monthly or bi-monthly (tied with checks) rankings for clan wars, where top 3 clans from that period get additional perk points bonus. General ,,all-time" ranking is fine, but some clans farmed shittons of wins over the years, looking at monthly/bi-monthly dynamics would be more interesting.
- introducing clan ranks to the ranked seasons as well. You'd have to think about the exact formula for counting that (adding the elo points of clan members that play rankeds and/or dividing that by the number of clan members that play ranked might be a bit too simple), but I'm sure you could figure it out. Give top clan from each season additional perk points and some small item/tc prize.
- introducing clan vs clan competition state. What I mean is: Clan A and Clan B can bet certain amount of their perk points against each other. After set time passes, whichever clan was more active during that period, wins the bet and gets the points.
No time to think about more stuff for now but I will keep my eyes on the thread.
@ele: not sure I could be bothered :^)
No major complaints, looks better than the current one, given the state the community is in.
Singleplayer:
No easy way around it. Counting steam hours is abusable, so is just counting the posts/replays. Not only replay-making takes a lot of time, but giving a proper c&c is pretty important as well. You'd have to go case by case, checking activity of clans in their replay threads manually. However, as that's a clan activity we're talking about here, only replays posted in the clan board would be taken into consideration. One does not need to be in a clan to be a replay maker, therefore, posts from replays board would not count. You want the replay to count towards the activity of your clan? Post it in your board, make the members discuss it. It could be easier just to check those threads in clans that identify as mainly single player or hybrid ones.
Maybe you could even automate it a bit, with a script to count posts and replays, with a disclaimer that if an abuse of the system is detected (random checks from CS members once in a while), clan gets an instant strike.
Rating the replays is a subjective thing and I would not go there/wouldn't include that in the process of checking the activity. Obviously, standing still for 500 frames would not fly, but otherwise I would steer clear from going ,,your decap is not good enough to be a proper sp replay".
There is also an issue with people simply posting older replays with new names, slightly edited movement or just stolen one. Unless you were to check every single replay in the thread when the new replay is posted, you couldn't be sure if clan is not just trolling you by posting the same 10 reps again and again.
Inactive ranks:
I get your point, however, some people are not coming back. Even if, by some miracle, f.ex. Azuma resurrects himself from the dead, I'm sure I would notice him shitposting around forums/discord and move him to one of the active ranks for that month. Not counting inactive members for the checks under current system would give us a small point boost. Not enough to argue over, though, so I'll leave it be.
Perks/points to get perks:
Consider giving clans rewards for important events in their history. Clan video or clan picture appeared - cool, not many bother to do those anymore, have some points. You passed an important anniversary? We appreciate you being there, have some more. That'd require some more work from CS but I feel that this kind of personal touch would be appreciated.
Clans are about playing together - give some point boosts if more than 3 players from the same clan gather and play on the same server.
What could slightly improve the competitiveness of clans is:
- introducing monthly or bi-monthly (tied with checks) rankings for clan wars, where top 3 clans from that period get additional perk points bonus. General ,,all-time" ranking is fine, but some clans farmed shittons of wins over the years, looking at monthly/bi-monthly dynamics would be more interesting.
- introducing clan ranks to the ranked seasons as well. You'd have to think about the exact formula for counting that (adding the elo points of clan members that play rankeds and/or dividing that by the number of clan members that play ranked might be a bit too simple), but I'm sure you could figure it out. Give top clan from each season additional perk points and some small item/tc prize.
- introducing clan vs clan competition state. What I mean is: Clan A and Clan B can bet certain amount of their perk points against each other. After set time passes, whichever clan was more active during that period, wins the bet and gets the points.
No time to think about more stuff for now but I will keep my eyes on the thread.
@ele: not sure I could be bothered :^)
retired
One big issue still isn't addressed: people prefer socialising on 3rd party applications and forcing them to use outdated forum system is simply creating shitposting on clan boards.
If we use Discord as an example, there are services that display server's activity in few steps. I'm sure there's a way to include it in activity checks, especially if a clan meets in-game criteria but lacks on forum side.
If we use Discord as an example, there are services that display server's activity in few steps. I'm sure there's a way to include it in activity checks, especially if a clan meets in-game criteria but lacks on forum side.
Ughhhh. I just spent so much time typing up a response and it disappeared. Okay, round two.
First off, I’m glad we are in agreement that the current activity system needs a rework. I just think it doesn’t accurately show how active a clan is and I feel like clans are unfairly killed/removed from official status. So first, I’ll address your proposed changes. I agree with the first 0-24 tier. 25 points isn’t hard to manage and if a clan truly is inactive it’s going to get killed. However, I strongly disagree with the every two months, if failing 2 in 6 months you get killed. I think it should be once a month and if you fail 2 in a row then it’s done for your clan. It’s not that hard to maintain and if you do happen to fail it isn’t a challenge to get your activity up. For the 25-30 area I don’t really think it’s necessary for you to let them know they are in danger of failing, I’m sure that they can check themselves via the activity check feature. Unless you can set up an automated system to do it for you, I just think it’s unnecessary.
Next, I wholeheartedly disagree with 5 games a month being the determinant number for whether or not a player is active. I’d like to see it raised to at least 10, even better if it could be made into 15. 5 is doable in about 20 minutes or less of playing. Definitely not justifiable to say that 20 minutes ingame makes you active imo. Not that 10 games is any better, but it’s just more realistic. I think event integration is great, and I think you should get not only activity points for participating and winning, but earn your clan some perk points as well.
Side note: I think that you should not have a limit on the amount of points that can be earned. At the end of the month, or whatever interval you set, the clan with the most points wins a prize for each member that is currently active in the clan. Nothing too huge, just small prizes or maybe a free customization for the clan. Something simple like that.
I do personally have an issue with integrating single player into the activity standpoint. I don’t think you should earn clan activity points by playing alone and making replays. The clans dynamic is meant so you can outreach with the community and your fellow clan members and play some wars and aim for number one. Sure, I’m sure that there are single player clans out there that will disagree but I certainly think that it shouldn’t be something we take into account for a few reasons. First of all it would be time consuming to sift through the replays submitted to the board and would require a lot of manpower to check and see if people are trying to cheat the system. Not that there are a lack of volunteers, but still it’s a lot to have to do. Before even considering adding it, what would the basis be? Amount of replays submitted for points? Quality of replays? How would you judge whether or not a replay deserves points? Etc. There is just so much more we’d need to know before even taking it into consideration. The same thing goes for art. You’d need specific Lmods to check the art for quality and I guess time spent
I don’t even know where I’d begin in that one. Would be interesting to see some more comments in the coming days regarding this.
I see no purpose in inactive ranks.
As for official servers I’m neutral. I just think it’s pointless clutter to the already cluttered room list. You can just as easily create your own room and play on there. What if the dreaded 0 glitch occurs and now you room is just permanently broke? Just the first thought that crosses my mind tbh. It’s a great concept and idea but I feel like the same exact thing can be accomplished manually. However it would be a great tc sink for the community soooo I’m just bent on whether or not we really need it at this point.
Recruitment banners are an awesome idea and I wish we could have seen more of it when toribash has hit its peak. It’s a fantastic way for recruiting new members but personally I think it could interfere with event banners and other important banners though too. Imagine how many people would purchase a spot. The only way I could see this is if you put a limit on the amount of banners you can have up at a single time.
An appeal system would be nice, but it would just be abused. Every single clan regardless of its actual activity would appeal and would just waste time. But it’s a great idea for clans who truly wish to dispute their clan deofficialization/death.
Also, one last thing. Most clans use discord and I would LOVE to see a way to include discord activity into a point system.
Okay well that about covers it for now. I’ll make a few edits here and there when I feel it’s necessary. If anyone has questions or sees issues with my logic feel free to reply and I’ll get to you when I can. Overall great thread, great ideas. Keep it up CS!
First off, I’m glad we are in agreement that the current activity system needs a rework. I just think it doesn’t accurately show how active a clan is and I feel like clans are unfairly killed/removed from official status. So first, I’ll address your proposed changes. I agree with the first 0-24 tier. 25 points isn’t hard to manage and if a clan truly is inactive it’s going to get killed. However, I strongly disagree with the every two months, if failing 2 in 6 months you get killed. I think it should be once a month and if you fail 2 in a row then it’s done for your clan. It’s not that hard to maintain and if you do happen to fail it isn’t a challenge to get your activity up. For the 25-30 area I don’t really think it’s necessary for you to let them know they are in danger of failing, I’m sure that they can check themselves via the activity check feature. Unless you can set up an automated system to do it for you, I just think it’s unnecessary.
Next, I wholeheartedly disagree with 5 games a month being the determinant number for whether or not a player is active. I’d like to see it raised to at least 10, even better if it could be made into 15. 5 is doable in about 20 minutes or less of playing. Definitely not justifiable to say that 20 minutes ingame makes you active imo. Not that 10 games is any better, but it’s just more realistic. I think event integration is great, and I think you should get not only activity points for participating and winning, but earn your clan some perk points as well.
Side note: I think that you should not have a limit on the amount of points that can be earned. At the end of the month, or whatever interval you set, the clan with the most points wins a prize for each member that is currently active in the clan. Nothing too huge, just small prizes or maybe a free customization for the clan. Something simple like that.
I do personally have an issue with integrating single player into the activity standpoint. I don’t think you should earn clan activity points by playing alone and making replays. The clans dynamic is meant so you can outreach with the community and your fellow clan members and play some wars and aim for number one. Sure, I’m sure that there are single player clans out there that will disagree but I certainly think that it shouldn’t be something we take into account for a few reasons. First of all it would be time consuming to sift through the replays submitted to the board and would require a lot of manpower to check and see if people are trying to cheat the system. Not that there are a lack of volunteers, but still it’s a lot to have to do. Before even considering adding it, what would the basis be? Amount of replays submitted for points? Quality of replays? How would you judge whether or not a replay deserves points? Etc. There is just so much more we’d need to know before even taking it into consideration. The same thing goes for art. You’d need specific Lmods to check the art for quality and I guess time spent
I don’t even know where I’d begin in that one. Would be interesting to see some more comments in the coming days regarding this.I see no purpose in inactive ranks.
As for official servers I’m neutral. I just think it’s pointless clutter to the already cluttered room list. You can just as easily create your own room and play on there. What if the dreaded 0 glitch occurs and now you room is just permanently broke? Just the first thought that crosses my mind tbh. It’s a great concept and idea but I feel like the same exact thing can be accomplished manually. However it would be a great tc sink for the community soooo I’m just bent on whether or not we really need it at this point.
Recruitment banners are an awesome idea and I wish we could have seen more of it when toribash has hit its peak. It’s a fantastic way for recruiting new members but personally I think it could interfere with event banners and other important banners though too. Imagine how many people would purchase a spot. The only way I could see this is if you put a limit on the amount of banners you can have up at a single time.
An appeal system would be nice, but it would just be abused. Every single clan regardless of its actual activity would appeal and would just waste time. But it’s a great idea for clans who truly wish to dispute their clan deofficialization/death.
Also, one last thing. Most clans use discord and I would LOVE to see a way to include discord activity into a point system.
Okay well that about covers it for now. I’ll make a few edits here and there when I feel it’s necessary. If anyone has questions or sees issues with my logic feel free to reply and I’ll get to you when I can. Overall great thread, great ideas. Keep it up CS!
