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Jul 14, 2015 Old
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Jul 14, 2015 Old
Originally Posted by cowmeat View Post
Again new level of smarts. " Does it matter if you kill them before or after birth? " Well me ejaculating into someones vagina doesnt instantly make a baby. There is a reason there is a set "date" after which abortion is illegal. A few week old fetus is nothing more than pile of cells with very limited functions.


This is a human worth ruining someones life over?

But if you dont ruin it, it will be a human. And its heartbeats starts at 4th-6th weeks. Is killing something going to be human and has its heart beating normal?
Also every creature have soul. Would you like to see your body being killed by your mom's permission? Dont you get angry when your mother decides something going to affect your life? What if your mother wanted you to die? Why they don't ask you? Do you think there's a living being can choose death instance of life?
Its simple. You can't decide if a creature gonna live or die. Its not your right.
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Jul 14, 2015 Old
Originally Posted by IBlackleon View Post
You can't decide if a creature gonna live or die. Its not your right.

So women don't have the right to control their own bodies? As soon as a fetus is in there, suddenly, the fetus becomes more important than the woman? You're weighing and comparing the rights of something that is already a fully developed human, vs something that merely has the potential to be. Imagine how you would feel about that if you were a woman being forced to have a baby you didn't want to have (for whatever reasons.. Could even be a rape baby like others here have mentioned).
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Nah. Certainly not in the first 24 weeks, when the fetus can't feel pain or perceive anything. The fact that it's life is totally moot point as far as I'm concerned, since I don't think of killing as categorically wrong. What makes some acts of killing wrong (on my view) are factors like infliction of suffering (not the case with fetus) and thwarting of desires (not the case with fetus).

I'll tell you who can feel suffering and has desires, though: the pregnant woman. She shouldn't be forced to carry the fetus to term if she doesn't want to.
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Jul 14, 2015 Old
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
So women don't have the right to control their own bodies? As soon as a fetus is in there, suddenly, the fetus becomes more important than the woman? You're weighing and comparing the rights of something that is already a fully developed human, vs something that merely has the potential to be.

No. Treating them by their strength is the worst thing to do. Do we have to listen strong one? But a fetus cant even defend itself. Cant say that it want to live.
I think they are both equal. And first thing they have => "Right to Life"
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Jul 14, 2015 Old
Originally Posted by IBlackleon View Post
No. Treating them by their strength is the worst thing to do. Do we have to listen strong one? But a fetus cant even defend itself. Cant say that it want to live.
I think they are both equal. And first thing they have => "Right to Life"

I don't know where you're getting this whole 'strong people' should live thing.. I never said that. I'm saying that woman are actually people and that fetus's, before a point, are not people. I'm saying it's not that good of an idea to weigh the rights of an actual human being with the rights of something that is not, but has the potential to be, a human being.

And they can't be equal. If you make it so that abortion is illegal, then the woman's rights are being trampled over... The rights of real, fully developed person.
Last edited by Ele; Jul 14, 2015 at 03:20 AM.
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Jul 14, 2015 Old
A fetus' heart is developed enough to beat at a regular rate at 6-7 weeks. It cannot be heard with a stethoscope until around week 22. However, a baby is not considered to be a fetus until week 10. Before then, it is simply an embryo. I must argue that simply having a heartbeat does not mean that it is human. I would say that having a fully functioning nervous system is ample proof that a fetus can then be considered to be a human (week 27-30), though as Oracle has pointed out, that it should be considered "alive" or not is still under contention.

Statistics for the junkies:
around 90% of abortions happen before the first trimester (13 weeks) and another 7% happen between 14-20 weeks. So 97% of abortions happen before the point that I would consider a fetus to be human. For you AntiPeople, those 6-7 weeks comprise around 45% of abortions, give or take a few.
here is a link that outlines the growth of a fetus so that you can all see what happens when and make a decision for yourself what the point is where you consider it to be a person.
All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That’'s how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day.
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Abortion should be illegal because even if they aren't considered "living" they should still be treated as a human being. Steve Jobs pioneered touch-screen phones and practically changed how phones are today, yet he was put up for adoption because his parents didn't want him (example of how putting a child up for adoption is better than aborting them), just because the fetus is not capable of human thoughts, does not mean it is not living and that does not mean it won't do anything in this world. All humans are entitled to "life liberty and property/pursuit of happiness," babies are humans, too, so they should be treated accordingly.

By the way, comparing a tree to a baby is stupid, a tree does not have thoughts, they are here to make oxygen and grow, meanwhile humans are here to think, be creative, dream, and live, which most of us aren't doing, that's why we are debating over this topic and getting nothing done, instead we could be trying to change this in the real world, but I am pretty sure no one has enough balls to do so in this forum.
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Which is exactly why we are discussing and trying to figure out what the point is that a fetus is considered to be a human.
All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That’'s how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day.
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Originally Posted by BuZe View Post
By the way, comparing a tree to a baby is stupid, a tree does not have thoughts, they are here to make oxygen and grow, meanwhile humans are here to think, be creative, dream, and live, which most of us aren't doing, that's why we are debating over this topic and getting nothing done, instead we could be trying to change this in the real world, but I am pretty sure no one has enough balls to do so in this forum.

Since Ele is doing the first paragraph I'll do the second.

First of all
"By the way, comparing a tree to a baby is stupid, a tree does not have thoughts,"

Exactly the point, a fetus doesnt have any complex functions early in it lifespan. Comparing it to a tree in that sense is perfectly fine.

When it comes to potential, you could conclude from that logic: "every time I ejaculate, it should be done into a woman because I'm wasting the "potential" of my sperm if I dont. "Potential in it self isnt an inherit value.

Second:
"meanwhile humans are here to think, be creative, dream, and live, "

Are you implying that you know the purpose of life? Or that there is one? olord
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Originally Posted by BuZe View Post
Abortion should be illegal because even if they aren't considered "living" they should still be treated as a human being. Steve Jobs pioneered touch-screen phones and practically changed how phones are today, yet he was put up for adoption because his parents didn't want him (example of how putting a child up for adoption is better than aborting them), just because the fetus is not capable of human thoughts, does not mean it is not living and that does not mean it won't do anything in this world. All humans are entitled to "life liberty and property/pursuit of happiness," babies are humans, too, so they should be treated accordingly.

Human embryos do not have brains and do not have consciousness or sentience. It's not just not capable of human thoughts, it's incapable of any thoughts. Is it a human at this point? Would you prevent a woman from aborting it? At that point, do you value the rights of a woman with actual thoughts, desires and fears below the 'rights' of this insentient biological unit?
Last edited by Ele; Jul 14, 2015 at 04:48 AM.
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