Here's an argument for how TW rules make Wushu less competitive:

Case 1: Openers

Team Wushu doesn't allow or at least greatly discourages the use of openers. Openers are optimized ways to manipulate your character and either get yourself in either a better defensive stance, or strike with great force.

You're discouraging or even going far as forbidding players from doing something that'll make them win more games. Openers are FAIR, both players can use them, they aren't some cheat code, there's no RPG element of progression that allows you to use openers. Improv is impromptu, and you shouldn't be "winging it" come competition time. Nobody goes into a LoL game without knowing which summoner spells, item build options, or spell sequences they'll be using on their champion. Nobody doesn't have a clear supply times to grab their gasses or expansions when playing Starcraft 2.

Case 2: Coming Back

It's strategically completely illogical to comeback when you're winning by a decent amount. The object of wushu is to score more points than you're opponent. Sorta like football. Well if I make a wide open pass and blow pass your safety, I'm not going to run back to your defensive tackles so that you can tackle me again for only a 5 yard gain. Screw that, I'm scoring the touchdown baby. You're not getting this ball until I want you to. You left me wide open, why should I have to come back to you?

I'll tell you why- a preconceived notion. This idea that fairplay means having to cripple yourself. This idea that making the game winnable for the opponent makes the game more fun and interesting, and since fun and interesting is your goal, it has to be your opponents to. Fun and interesting isn't how competition works. Doing what it takes to win is. Alabama played Chattanooga this year and won 49-0. Would it have been fun and interesting, a closer game, etc, had we played our 4th string from the start of the game? Yeah. That's not the point.

If your game isn't inherently fun and interesting when played competitively, that's the games fault. You think it's boring watching Falco kite you with his lazer blaster, or King Dedede chain grabbing Donkey Kong for an infinite amount of time? You don't ban the strategy, you fix the game. 6 pooling in Starcraft isn't fun, it isn't interesting, it's not hard to do, but guess what? It's legal. And if you fuck up countering it you lose in about 6 minutes and 30 seconds.

3: Fair Play

You guys have completely changed what the term FAIR is. For some reason, you have this weird notion that something is unfair in wushu. The ONLY unfair discrepancy is wushu is that Tori and Uke aren't identical, meaning the same move yields different results depending on whether or not you're player 1 or 2. If you found a way to exploit wushu by creating a move only Tori could do, that Uke's position didn't allow a decent block for- that'd be unfair.

Not coming back isn't unfair. It's just unpleasant.
Using an opener isn't unfair, it just isn't creative.

A lot of the old wushu following came from this idea that you could make extravagant neat openers. Helicopter kicks in particular are what got me interested in the mod to begin with. Some of the best players who ever revolutionized wushu made unbelievably beautiful openers. The ludicrous hypocrisy is that most of your Hall of Fame in TW is composed of opener loving players.


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That being my argument about how Team Wushu has made Wushu less competitive, let me tell you how they can move the game forward rather than backwards.

1) Start caring about winning.

2) Change the mod of wushu. Play and popularize this new mod that confines players in a box. Don't go and say "hey we like this idea", and then waste your time in public servers where you play the mod you don't actually like.

3) Allow for and encourage openers.


You don't want to care about winning and doing strategies that regard winning? That's fine. We all get different things out of Toribash. Shit isn't competitive though.

He is actually right.

All these restrictions forbid something exact, i.e. throwing on head etc, whereas general wushu restrictions are "no openers, no running, fair play only".

Opener is any beginning of the game. Hold all and relax all are openers which have their statistics. You can look at current opener statistics and I bet that there are no unused openers today.

Running is a questionable thing. What if you can only save yourself from touching ground by releasing your arm which results in flying away from your opponent?

Fair play is nonsense. Let's just say that everybody has their own view of what is fair and what is not.



Wushu tournament / championship for everybody can only be competitive if everything is allowed. So it will be just full of standard openers, some kicks and running. Moreover, wushu games take much more time than aikido ones (at average).


Nabi Aikido World Championship was hampa's idea. If he wants to make something similar in a different mod, such event will take place. However, hosting a competition of such sort in a mod which rules are hardly suitable for that is unlikely to happen.

Judofrac is the only mod that comes to my mind which could be suitable apart from aikido.


EDIT: Since when it's considered to be okay to make nonsense posts in this board? If it doesn't have any specific rules, it doesn't mean that general forum rules do not apply.

I agree OMI!!! or maybe rk-mma, lenshu3ng, tk, or any fighting mod rather than a more wrestling oriented mod.


TheGod please understand you are not the only player in the community.

And all the fair-play talk really is irrelevant idk how this convo is still continuing as if no one will ever learn. There is no fair play in competition with vague
rules like 'no running' and such. Put it in a box or a ring and let people play how they want to play. If you think this ruins wushu's integrity then maybe you should just sit out during the competition, or allow people to run without a ring. YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO DAMMIT

Edit: one more thing. wushu needs to fundamentally change for the play style TW and other wushuers enjoy. If you don't understand that then you have another host of issues. Put a ring, change engage distance if you want, but you cannon combat people wanting to win, its just not going to happen. Not now, not ever

With that being said, I still disagree with this ----> "That being my argument about how Team Wushu has made Wushu less competitive, let me tell you how they can move the game forward rather than backwards."

They are not making it less competitive. The idea is (when NOT just complaining about everyone else's play style) Or at least the notion I always got from this portion of the community isn't that we should chastise those who do not follow our guidelines(if u can call it that) but to try and beat the players who play very direct for the win, while retaining your style. This doesn't mean its becoming less competitive it just means we are further challenging our selves to play as the underdog but still come out victorious. I play this way because when I win, and I gave them every opportunity to CB I feel proud of the accomplishment. It makes it more competitive if you allow the 'cheap' moves but still retain these ideas, not less competitive.


I will play my way, you play yours. No hard feelings.

I'm not even in TW btw xD

Hax :

The definition of competitivness(in sports/games) simply means doing whatever you can to win.

So if an organizer enforces a set of rules, it means that you will do whatever you can to win while obiding to those rules. While it's pretty uncommon to have rules of this kind in online multiplayer games, it still doesn't make the matches less competitive with those rules. Only now you are being forced to play differently.

As far as openers go, I'm not really against them. Use them if that's your thing. However by enforcing improv you're not making the match any less competitive. The only difference is that now you're competing(doing whatever you can to win) under a certain rule. The player with better skills will still win most of the time.

Same thing with comebacks. You are still trying to win. Only now you're being forced to engage your opponent. Thus proving that you really are better. Sounds like competition to me.

Start caring about winning? It's still just as much about winning. Only now there's rules that enforce a certain type of gameplay. Do you think Winver won that TW championship because he was just trying to have fun and didn't do everything he could to win? Obviously he was being ultra-competitive.

Basically what you're saying : "The strategies that I use to win in wushu are ilegal according to TW, therefore wushu without those strategies becomes less about winning" Isn't it?

Sir: "Wushu tournament / championship for everybody can only be competitive if everything is allowed" Why? You're still trying to win. Therefore it's competitive.
And sorry if this is nonsense to you, I thought it was ok to discuss these things here. I don't think we're hurting anybody.


That's fine by me I don't want to tell ppl how to play, just saying that TW rules don't make it any less about winning. Btw AWC was quite exciting to watch. For people who play aikido anyway.

I think you did an excellent job in addressing almost none of my points. Your own argument can be thrown back right in your face. "The strategies that I use to win in wushu are illegal to TW, therefore wushu without those strategies becomes less about winning" can easily be retorted back as "You guys can't win unless you ban strategies"

This is an e-sport, not a sport. We can legitimately program any rule we think should be enforced. You can't hit below the belt, but free will and human action allows hitting below the belt to happen. In an e-sport, you can literally program it impossible to hit below the belt. That is why you don't need to make exclusionary clauses in video games- if it's physically possible, and you're not cheating the coding, it's fairgame. Sissykick is right- if TW wants to play wushu and still go about the rules and conventions it likes so much, they need to change their mod to make that possible.

The level of subjectivity that surrounds the style of wushu you're interested in is facetious at best. TheGod is right, you don't need fancy rules and a panel of judges deciding on a case by case basis what's fair in a competitive mod, but you do in your ideal wushu match. What's running compared to simply dodging? Or do I just have to sit there as you come towards me ready to kick my face? What's an opener compared to a stance, or better yet, improvs that look a lot like openers?

Doesn't the fact that we even need to have a discussion about what's fair and unfair, legal vs. should be banned, competitive vs. not competitive in it of itself point out how much of an outlier Wushu is to the rest of the "competition" mods? Nobody has anything to say about judofrac.tbm, you just set it and go and have fun! Play in a tournament and see who's the best, like a video game should play out.

*last post here*

I don't see the running rule as ambiguous. You can certainly dodge your opponent. The point is that you're not consistently avoiding contact(running). There is an obvious difference.

The no opener rule is certainly ambiguous, I will give you that. Either ed needs to be increased or just use openers, I don't care really.

Wushu certainly is an outlier, since it's so easy to blatantly run away when you're up on points. That's what should be solved, not accepted as a part of the game. Why play it anyway if it just becomes hit'n'run?

I don't have anything against boxshu or wushu with a dojo. Just trying to prove a point that giving wushu some rules doesn't make it any less competitive.



Actually no, what I said was basically your whole argument, or not? "You guys can't win unless you ban strategies" - this is an assumption. I can't win(most of the time) against players that are better than me either way. If I'm better than someone I can very well beat them using "dirty" strategies. So what's your point? I think you're the one being evasive.

Anyway, just trying to get to the middle of this... Not intending to be harsh or anything.