Minimum wage (Page 5)

Smogard49

Feb 14, 2016

Smogard49

Join Date: Apr 2010

Feb 14, 2016

Originally Posted by FruitCandy

Oh shut up. People come into this country with barely the clothes off their back and no education, no friends. Yet they come and work. And they pay through their education and to a better career. Yet we have those who live on McDonald's pay and child support. I'm talking adults here.

People came to America because 1) land were free and 2) there were barely any taxation in the first place. Now, if we are talking about the immigration in the late 1900 and early 2000 things were pretty on the rise, instead of a decline when it comes to the American workforce. Working in a restaurant at nights and affording college without a loan were easy 1950, but the thing is that today, being poor often means you have no to little chance of rising in the social hierarchy, without higher education.

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FruitCandy

Feb 14, 2016

FruitCandy

Member

Join Date: Jan 2016

Feb 14, 2016

On what grounds can you make a statement like that? America has changed a lot, but one can still work towards an education and good job.

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Goat

Feb 14, 2016

Goat

Join Date: Oct 2009

Feb 14, 2016

Originally Posted by FruitCandy

Oh shut up. People come into this country with barely the clothes off their back and no education, no friends. Yet they come and work. And they pay through their education and to a better career. Yet we have those who live on McDonald's pay and child support. I'm talking adults here.

There should be no reason you can't progress in today's society. Minimum wage jobs are not for living on, but as a stepping stone into a better future. Whether it be a summer job, a second job in college, or idk whatever, it should not be something to settle, but to help push you forward into a better, more productive future. I think minimum wage is fine as it is.
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(America only guarentee)
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Booker Washington, for example, was an uneducated Black man who worked very little pay. However, he payed through college while working there and eventually took classes as well. He became a professor and later, the founder of his own college.
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Not sayin min wage is bad. It should be uncomfortable though. No one should settle with these jobs.

Well, considering 45 million Americans are under or on the poverty line and over 600,000 homeless (both figures are not up to date as of 2016) I'd say there's still a problem. Honestly I have no idea how old you are or where you live but you haven't been exposed to poverty or real struggles. Of course, America is far better off than many countries but growing up in Lynn Massachusetts I've seen first hand the effects of poverty. Your idea that everybody has equal opportunity is ignorant.

Sources:
http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press.../cb14-169.html
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/fact.../How_Many.html

FruitCandy

Feb 14, 2016

FruitCandy

Member

Join Date: Jan 2016

Feb 14, 2016

#1 You tell me how I have lived my life and what I've been exposed to, yet you call me ignorant? Funny how that works.

#2 If you truly lived and have been exposed to poverty, you should understand how many lazy pot heads pollute our communities, living off of food stamps and child support, fully capable to do much for themselves yet too stoned or lazy to give a shit (majority of poor peeps I see). It's not that they are unable, incapable to do anything; they chose their outcome.

As for the few that are truly in need, jobs are in low supply. For them, I am truly sympathetic. But raising minimum wage won't be enough I'm afraid...
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Remember to not deviate from the main topic

Last edited by FruitCandy; Feb 14, 2016 at 07:25 PM. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump

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Goat

Feb 14, 2016

Goat

Join Date: Oct 2009

Feb 14, 2016

Originally Posted by FruitCandy

#1 You tell me how I have lived my life and what I've been exposed to, yet you call me ignorant? Funny how that works.

#2 If you truly lived and have been exposed to poverty, you should understand how many lazy pot heads pollute our communities, living off of food stamps and child support, fully capable to do much for themselves yet too stoned or lazy to give a shit (majority of poor peeps I see). It's not that they are unable, incapable to do anything; they chose their outcome.

As for the few that are truly in need, jobs are in low supply. For them, I am truly sympathetic. But raising minimum wage won't be enough I'm afraid...

I say ignorant because you're saying that poor people are "lazy potheads living off of food stamps" when in reality a lot of them can't afford the essentials like medication. I was also saying that because you assume that everybody has equal
opportunity when that's not the reality. For those without cars they are limited to where they can commute for work, it's not a simple problem.

Edit: This isn't deviating from the original topic, we're talking about the effects of poverty.

FruitCandy

Feb 14, 2016

FruitCandy

Member

Join Date: Jan 2016

Feb 14, 2016

I understand how prominent inequality is in todays society, meh. Anyway, you seem to have a strong foundation for your views...

How do you think raising minimum wage will affect the less fortunate? Not baiting you, just wondering.

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Goat

Feb 14, 2016

Goat

Join Date: Oct 2009

Feb 14, 2016

Originally Posted by FruitCandy

I understand how prominent inequality is in todays society, meh. Anyway, you seem to have a strong foundation for your views...

How do you think raising minimum wage will affect the less fortunate? Not baiting you, just wondering.

This was discussed in the first few pages. Prices would have to rise but people would be making more than the cost increase.
Raising the minimum wage alone will NOT end poverty, there isn't a one fix solution.

Last edited by Goat; Feb 14, 2016 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Adding more content

hawkesnightmare

Feb 15, 2016

hawkesnightmare

WHERE'S MY DRINK?!

Join Date: Jul 2012

Feb 15, 2016

FruitCandy, your view on minimum wage and the economy is biased, uneducated, and Trump-like. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by FruitCandy

Mayn. Minimum wage jobs are not meant for people to make a comfortable living off of. Want better pay? Work your ass off and get a better job.

Sho nuff

One
Two
Three
The first gives you FDR's thoughts on minimum wage (and where to look up the source), while the second and third show how hard he worked to implement the law.

Originally Posted by FruitCandy

Oh shut up. People come into this country with barely the clothes off their back and no education, no friends. Yet they come and work. And they pay through their education and to a better career. Yet we have those who live on McDonald's pay and child support. I'm talking adults here.

I wonder why they have to live like that. Maybe because they literally cannot afford to better their situation? I'm going to paint a picture for you based on what you've said so far. We've got a single mother working at McDonald's making minimum wage and receiving child support from the father. The amount of this payment varies because it is based on percentage, not a fixed value, but to make this easy to calculate, I'm going to assume the father is also working a minimum wage job. Now:
At $7.25/hr, 40hrs/wk, the mother is making $15,080 a year, before taxes. I have found that on average, the state takes about 15% of the gross income from the paycheck, leaving $12,818. When calculating child support, the court looks at the gross income instead of net income, so assuming the father works the same as the mother, the court mandates that he needs to pay about $250/mo, or $3016/yr, bringing the mother's total income back up to $15,834 (child support isn't taxed). Now look at that! The mother has actually gotten about $750 more than her job paid her originally. Not so fast. The poverty line for a family of two (mother and child) is $16,020. Plus, that father that has to keep paying child support? He's barely above the poverty line at $12,064. These are both people working 40 hours per week, with one of them needing to raise a child in that time.

Poverty Line
Child Support Calculation is based on state, but most formulas say either 20% or 25%. Whichever one you use in my example above, one will be below the poverty line and the other will be barely above it. Take your pick.

Originally Posted by FruitCandy

There should be no reason you can't progress in today's society. Minimum wage jobs are not for living on, but as a stepping stone into a better future. Whether it be a summer job, a second job in college, or idk whatever, it should not be something to settle, but to help push you forward into a better, more productive future. I think minimum wage is fine as it is.

See my first point.

Originally Posted by FruitCandy

Booker Washington, for example, was an uneducated Black man who worked very little pay. However, he payed through college while working there and eventually took classes as well. He became a professor and later, the founder of his own college.

Washington worked in coal and salt mines for years to provide for himself. He then attended Hampton while working there to pay for his studies. Hampton was established specifically to educate blacks. As a result, many of the students could not afford to pay full tuition. These costs were normally waived because the Institute received financial aid from various missionaries and churches. That is how he was able to go to college while working.

Originally Posted by FruitCandy

If you truly lived and have been exposed to poverty, you should understand how many lazy pot heads pollute our communities, living off of food stamps and child support, fully capable to do much for themselves yet too stoned or lazy to give a shit (majority of poor peeps I see). It's not that they are unable, incapable to do anything; they chose their outcome.

I've provided many sources for you to prove my points. If you could show me something that proves that many of the poor are "lazy potheads" it would be much appreciated.

All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day.

Smogard49

Feb 16, 2016

Smogard49

Join Date: Apr 2010

Feb 16, 2016

EDIT: Since the original statement from ImmoPig went along the lines: "So increasing the minimum wage helps none?"

That's not what I said in the statement to which you offered the rebuttal, actualy, the class that get's hit the hardest from it is the unemployed, thereafter the middle class and lastly the rich. The poor with no saving but an increased wage would benefit from it, and so would anyone earning the minimum pay, as long as they live on their income. earlier you asked "How does people being rich hurt you?" and well, it's quite simple how a unven distribution of wealth affects society: there is 1 shop with 4 items and 5 buyers. All have the same amount of money, purely based from the same amount of income, the goods get somewhat evenly distributed, the one who does not attain the item attains it the next time the item is restocked. However, in the next scenario we have 1 guy with twice the money and twice the income, 2 with the same money and income and 2 with half the money and half the income, after lets say 30 income cycles, we clearly see how unevenly the item has been distributed. Now, this is how someone being rich can be negative to someone else, as in general it's just a uneven distribution of wealth, mainly from income.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Dude, don't just randomly post links that you clearly HAVE NOT READ... That is not how citations work!

Thanks for your input, let me offer just some rebuttal:

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Is this even true though?

Let's look at the Stanford link:

Is the relationship between wealth and crime actually strong enough to rely on? Looking at the homicide vs income inequality graph, we can see it's pretty damn loose, what's more in USA it's pretty damn loose too. Do the statistics even show that more wealth = less crime? The graph is actually homicide vs income inequality - a large value of inequality shows a lot of disparity, not a lot of poor people, thus saying that the graph shows poor = more crime is incorrect, it actually shows more disparity = more crime.

Observed the general crime rates has declined in the US during the past decades, however, general crime and the correlation between homicide still stands. I do think you misrepresent my point here, but yes I should have clarified what I aimed at within the data.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Would raising the minimum wage actually give us all more money? If instead, as many predict, it will cause businesses to downsize then unemployment will increase along with crime as the stanford link shows.

"[...]showing that although unemployment has increased in recent years, crime rates have continued to fall. "

Once again you use the word crime as loosely as I did, however I fail to see how the data shows any correlation between increasing unemployment and increasing crime rates. The data purely depicts the correlation between unemployment and crime rate as negative and income inequality and homicides as positive. According to the data a increased unemployment leads to less crime, which suggests that the two might not be linked directly.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Literally the first line of the worldbank link is "We investigate the robustness and causality of the link between income inequality and violent crime across countries"

And the first lines of the conclusion in the report:

"The main conclusion of this paper is that income inequality, measured by
the Gini index, has a significant and positive effect on the incidence of crime."

Moving on:

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Moving on, Levit S "The Changing Relationship between Income and Crime Victimization" - this article is about victimization, and actually concludes that poor people used to be unlikely victims of property orientated crime but are increasingly targeted, but the link between neighbourhood income and crime has WEAKENED (aka this is evidence counter to your assertion, this is why you should read your citations!!!) - "there is no relationship between median family income in the neighborhood and homicide rates in the 1990s."

Now, I already knew that I were very precise in the data I extracted from this one, and it surrounds the lines:

"National victimization data suggest that property crime victimization have become increasingly concentrated among the poor over the last twenty years"

But yes, you bring up some interesting points that I can play along with:

"Income inequality across Chicago neighborhoods has increased sharply over the last twenty years. Interestingly, however, the link between neighborhood income and homicide rates has substantially weakened over the same time period. In fact, for whites, there is no relationship between median family income in the neighborhood and homicide rates in the 1990s."

Oddly specific that this 1) only goes for "whites" and 2) that there seems to still be a link between having no money and crime, either it be you carrying out a crime, or being a victim of it.

Also, I chose this one due to the literature review which were a quite interesting read that summarizes the inconsistency in 1) data and interpretation in different reports and 2) the general consensus on the issue that there seems to be a link between income inequality and crime*.

* now the issue with the subject at hand is the loosely used term crime as some studies tend to make generalization towards the subject at large whilst sampling only a small portion of all crime. Generally speaking, it becomes messy and that if you find this part interesting, there are a countless number of reports trying to clear out the statistical significance between different types of crime and the summarized term "crime".

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Lastly you linked an article from Northwestern University, this article starts off interestingly: "The purpose of this study is to test the hypothesis that there is both a hereditary and an environmental component to the relation of social class and criminality. This analysis is possible because of the availability of data on a population of adoptees in Denmark. " (remembering from the earlier stanford article that Denmark has low income disparity and crime). I'm not going to discuss the article in depth but: "On the experiential side it is known that lower class status is connected to a variety of crime-associated characteristics such as less intellectual stimulation and lower educational attainment, greater disparity between opportunities and aspirations and greater likelihood of criminal associations. " So would decreasing income disparity between lower and middle class really help? No, it wouldn't.

Did you even bother reading the rest of it? As to why focusing on adoptees in Denmark:

"[...]Most studies that test the relationship of social class and crime using official criminality as a dependent variable suffer from sampling problems. [...]"

Now, table 5 in that report shows a clear correlation between income class of the adoptees parents and the adoptees with a crime conviction under their belt.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

I doubt employment rate could be held, I have no citation but I have read articles saying that businesses were planning to downsize in sanfran (?) if there was a minimum wage raise.

So, come again?

Last edited by Smogard49; Feb 16, 2016 at 04:36 PM. Reason: ImmortalPig 1) can't read or 2) chose to misrepresent the data.

Now doing recoloring for people not in the clan as-well, PM for more info!
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Karen

Jun 23, 2016

Karen

I want drool on your chin and a stammer in your voice.

Join Date: Jul 2015

Jun 23, 2016

me personally, i don't think increasing it would help in the slightest, for the simple fact of how the economy works. say something at a store costs one dollar, if we raise the minimum to 14.50$/h the item would just go up to two dollars . it will be just the exact same, just how you could buy a new car for 500 dollars they made like what 2.25/h, it may seem like a better deal but really its not. just like with the item from earlier, one dollar seems like a better deal than 2 dollars but its the exact same other then the fact that minimum wage is doubled with the second. that is how i would see it turning out.

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