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Jun 8, 2013 Old
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Jun 8, 2013 Old
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
In the context of a discussion about religion, expecting logical arguments from religious folk is illogical.

What? There are many religious people who are perfectly capable of forming logical arguements about their beliefs.

Assuming that religious people are essentially irrational and illogical about their beliefs is an insult especially when you remember that logic and science are two things.
It's also very counterproductive and all you will achieve is a mess full of rage and trolls (as you can see).

I suggest you leave this silly argument behind and move on to something more interesting.
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Jun 8, 2013 Old
Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
What? There are many religious people who are perfectly capable of forming logical arguements about their beliefs.

The end result of their 'logical' reasoning is illogical. So no, you're wrong.

Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
Assuming that religious people are essentially irrational and illogical about their beliefs is an insult especially when you remember that logic and science are two things.

'Assuming' is positing without proof. I haven't assumed anything. I, and Cow, have given valid reasoning.

As for your other point, science and logic go hand-in-hand. Don't join the discussion if you're just going to say stupid shit.

Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
It's also very counterproductive and all you will achieve is a mess full of rage and trolls (as you can see).

Sure. Let's never posit something controversial. How silly of me.
Oh wait. No. You're wrong again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
I suggest you leave this silly argument behind and move on to something more interesting.

Yep. I'm the idiot, not you. Right?
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Nice ad hominems. You insult me for disagreeing with you. I don't like you and won't respond to you anymore after this post. I just want to make some clarifications.

Science and logic do go hand in hand.
Science and logic are not the same.

Logic also goes hand in hand with grammar, philosophy and other schools of the human mind, including theology.

Creating a hypothesis that is not supported by facts and/or evidence is not essentially illogical, which you seem to imply.

You are basically insulting everyone who disagrees with you and are therefore not interested in a factual and objective debate. That makes you poisonous for any form of debate as you prefer polemics over validity.

My main point stands. This thread has become a mess made of rage, insults and trolls initiated by insulting a position of a huge group of people as illogical by default. I present your latest post as proof for that hypothesis.
Last edited by Sacrafan; Jun 8, 2013 at 10:52 PM.
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Jun 8, 2013 Old
Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
Nice ad hominems. You insult me for disagreeing with you.

You don't know what an ad hominem is. I insulted you only after dismantling your argument. My argument was not "You're an idiot". My argument was "You're wrong. Here's why you're wrong. Also, my argument is not silly, you're silly, idiot".

That's not an ad hominem. That's a burn. Please apply water.

Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
Science and logic do go hand in hand.
Science and logic are not the same.

Never said they were the same. Since you're so interested in logical fallacies, I would have thought you'd avoid using a strawman argument.

Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
Creating a hypothesis that is not supported by facts and/or evidence is not essentially illogical, which you seem to imply.

Hypotheses are without a presupposition of evidence, you're right about that.

When religious folk argue religion (or anyone argues religion, for that matter), they aren't putting forth a hypothesis. They're putting forth a theory. Theories are based off a body of evidence and logical inductions from said evidence.

Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
You are basically insulting everyone who disagrees with you and are therefore not interested in a factual and objective debate.

You're forgetting the part where I logically and systematically refute your points.

Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
My main point stands. This thread has become a mess made of rage, insults and trolls initiated by insulting a position of a huge group of people as illogical by default.

Good thing I'm injecting some good ol' fashioned logic into this thread then.
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Jun 9, 2013 Old
Originally Posted by Ele View Post
Maybe his wording is a bit off and 'inherently' is a stretch, but his point still stands. In the context of a discussion about religion, expecting logical arguments from religious folk is illogical.

That's heavily debatable in the first place, but he didn't limit his scope to religion. All he said was that religious people don't think as well.

Originally Posted by ImmortalCow View Post
You substituted "illogical religious people" for "stupid peepz" then get mad when I point out that you made the substitution >_>

Maybe you should read your own post, or not say dumb things...

Are you trying to set some sort of record for deliberate obtuseness? I am saying you are calling religious people less logical, or less capable of clear thought, or essentially "stupid peepz."

Originally Posted by ImmortalCow
Now you try to brush it away as "no, illogical and stupidity is the same" when obviously it isn't. You are just digging a bigger hole...

You can try and split hairs here all day if you want, but ultimately you're denigrating religious people as having inferior thought processes to yourself, and it's pretty childish to defend such an idea. The fact that you're being combative about this and refusing to acknowledge you may be even slightly out of line is a powerful indicator of your own inability to recognize other people's ideas as having merit, and it is exactly why others treat you with exasperation and contempt.
Last edited by Boredpayne; Jun 9, 2013 at 04:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
What? There are many religious people who are perfectly capable of forming logical arguements about their beliefs.

Unfortunately logical arguments based on illogical assertions are illogical :/
And if you read the quote, I don't /expect/ religious people to be able to think logically, but there are some that can. Here is an example of the more common variety:
Originally Posted by Kradel View Post
JS lots of people beleive in heaven and hell so dont try to prove somebody wrong on these facts cause you cant. I don't suppose you died and came back to life to tell us this now did you?


Originally Posted by Boredpayne View Post
That's heavily debatable in the first place, but he didn't limit his scope to religion. All he said was that religious people don't think as well.

Naturally. If someone is unable to apply basic logic in one area, why should I expect them to apply logic in other areas? Any argument from a religious person should be held as highly suspicious.

If someone is willing to use the "you can't disprove it therefore it's true" argument once, what's to stop them using it twice?
Originally Posted by Boredpayne View Post
Are you trying to set some sort of record for deliberate obtuseness? I am saying you are calling religious people less logical, or less capable of clear thought, or essentially "stupid peepz."

No, I'm saying that I don't expect someone with a history of being illogical to miraculously (by the grace of God, lel) be able to offer a logical argument.

That said, it's not like I accept anyone's argument as being logical without actually thinking about it first. It's just that I grab a few extra grains of salt before accepting that argument of someone I know often makes no sense. This isn't limited to religious people, I don't take oofun or Deak or that other troll account seriously either.
Originally Posted by Boredpayne View Post
You can try and split hairs here all day if you want, but ultimately you're denigrating religious people as having inferior thought processes to yourself, and it's pretty childish to defend such an idea. The fact that you're being combative about this and refusing to acknowledge you may be even slightly out of line is a powerful indicator of your own inability to recognize other people's ideas as having merit, and it is exactly why others treat you with exasperation and contempt.

I like how you extend my argument in the most ridiculous way possible.

What I said was "It's pointless to try and start a thread expecting logical arguments from religious folk, they are by definition illogical people"
What you seem to think I said is "I never listen to anything religious folk says because they are stupid and everything they say is stupid"
Do you see the difference? I don't /expect/ logical arguments from people that are illogical, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore their posts or anything. I still read them and think them through. Hell, when Ray is talking about non-religious topics he makes some very logical posts.

I have no obligation to consider each post as if the poster has no history. I will always hold Hyde, Odlov, yourself, Ray, and some others in higher regard, and I will always be suspicious of religious posters.

Some people think ideas aren't anchored to those who conceived them, but that's not the case. You should always think about who is posting and why, not just examining that single idea in isolation. It's a cute ideal, but it doesn't work in the real world.
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The assertion that there is a god is not illogical by default. It may be illogical from the standpoint that it is not useful for scientific purposes, but there is no way to disprove many claims about supernatural stuff so calling them out for being wrong by default without proof is way too drastic and will get you nowhere. I encourage debates. I discourage unnecessary generalizations and insults as they are conterproductive.

Religiouns show pretty well how the human mind works regarding the unknown. When we cannot explain something we try to fill the gaps with assumptions. Seeing as we are the most advanced species on this planet it seems to work out well.

…and if you are going to generalize ALL religious people on this planet with one statement you'll have to be very careful with your wording.
Not all religious people believe in a higher being, not all religious people contradict science, not all religious people form crazy arguments to justify phrases from their scripture.

I somewhat agree that the majority of religious people tends to be stupid.
I, however, would also somewhat agree that the majority of all people from any ideological group tends to be stupid.
Ontop of that I would say that I am very arrogant for saying that.

Yes, I read your /expect/ thingy. You also said “they are by definition illogical people” and I am responding to that.
Last edited by Sacrafan; Jun 9, 2013 at 09:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sacrafan View Post
The assertion that there is a god is not illogical by default. It may be illogical from the standpoint that it is not useful for scientific purposes, but there is no way to disprove many claims about supernatural stuff so calling them out for being wrong by default without proof is way too drastic and will get you nowhere. I encourage debates. I discourage unnecessary generalizations and insults as they are conterproductive.

Religiouns show pretty well how the human mind works regarding the unknown. When we cannot explain something we try to fill the gaps with assumptions. Seeing as we are the most advanced species on this planet it seems to work out well.

…and if you are going to generalize ALL religious people on this planet with one statement you'll have to be very careful with your wording.
Not all religious people believe in a higher being, not all religious people contradict science, not all religious people form crazy arguments to justify phrases from their scripture.

I somewhat agree that the majority of religious people tends to be stupid.
I, however, would also somewhat agree that the majority of all people from any ideological group tends to be stupid.
Ontop of that I would say that I am very arrogant for saying that.

Yes, I read your /expect/ thingy. You also said “they are by definition illogical people” and I am responding to that.

1. Basic logic dictates that in the absence of evidence, you shouldn't assume a position.
2. The definition of religion is as follows; "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods."
3. The definition of supernatural is as follows; "Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature."

Therefore from facts 2 and 3 we can see anyone religious assumes the correctness of at least one supernatural phenomenon. From fact 3 and 1 we can see that there is no scientific understanding of supernatural phenomenon, and that forming a position without grounding is illogical.

Ergo, any religious person is BY DEFINITION illogical.




This is not a generalization or insult, this is BY DEFINITION.
Can people please stop responding "oh but I don't like it"? If you aren't prepared to respond with a serious argument, don't respond. This is basic logic we are talking about............................................. ...
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I'm not disagreeing completely but I think the subject goes deeper :

Apparently "belief" is coded in our DNA, we're meant to ask ourselves if something greater than us exists. That greater thing being a supernatural being or not, or the absence of one, how beliefs could be totally illogical if we're "coded" to have them ?
Believing there's nothing is as much a belief as its opposite.

Some scientific people are still attached to their "cultural religion" and have faith, but still follows and apply scientific logic and know their religious texts aren't the truth. Whereas some atheist people would follow the atheism "dogma" saying there's nothing above humanbeings and never ask themselves about our "spiritual condition". That makes them at most "as logical as" other religious people. (Because as much as science will answer our questions about "how are we here", it will never answer the "why", which I think is the point of "spirituality")

My point is, religious people being "illogical" might not have something to do with their religions since non-religious ones might suffer the same lack of logic on the same matter. Humanbeings are just presently illogical and stupid, religion or not (but ye, religions, dogmas and religious censorship over the past thousand years had ofc a big role in our present stupidity)

If we quit the religious aspect and take a look at how we politically manage ourselves it just appears clear as water that we're just a bunch of stupid narcissistic cunts : we fux-up what makes us live, we wipe entire species off, we let a huge part of our specy starve and die in suffering, we barelly have any respect for Life in general.
Imo that's totally illogical for a "civilized" social specie.
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