Originally Posted by Ele
It's so great that Islam has those wonderful intentions. It's a shame their intentions don't resemble reality. Women under Islam have far less rights than under other religions. It doesn't matter if someone say's they're for womens rights when their actions clearly contradict what they say.
Yes, this a problem with human nature.
Parkour like you've never seen before:
http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=423045
http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=423045
Originally Posted by Hyde
The idea isn't to force them to become like us. You cannot force people to modernize.
I never said that was the idea. I said containing them would retard the process of modernisation.
Originally Posted by Hyde
There are absolutely no guidelines anywhere on how to modernize a region, so any discussion is purely speculation. I personally believe that forced integration is a bad thing.
Again, no one is talking about forced integration. There's been some pretty good precedents on how modernisation and westernisation can occur in the Middle East. Iran in the 70s is the best example.
Those aren't Americans. They were the Iranian youth of the 70s. In fact, it's because of this history of westernisation in Iran that the West is finally starting to realise that Iran, unlike lots of other countries in the region, is a natural ally for the West. They are a young people, and they're not happy with being lumped in with the extremists of both denominations. Containing them would be a horrendous misstep.
Originally Posted by xlr84life
Yes, this a problem with human nature.
No. The exact problem with Islam and womens rights, is what it is.
Last edited by Ele; Jan 11, 2015 at 04:35 AM.
Originally Posted by xlr84life
Yes, this a problem with human nature.
or the morals of Islam itself..
Originally Posted by Moonshake
Qur'an (4:3) - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four"
Qur'an (4:11) - "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"
Qur'an (2:228) - "And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them"
I found more!
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Last edited by Moonshake; Jan 11, 2015 at 04:46 AM.
Discord: bicycleforrats
<[Obey]Quest> yall needa tap into my telegram on gad
Chase Sapphire Reserve® Cardholder
Originally Posted by xlr84life
I already replied to you via PM AND http://forum.toribash.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=24
And protonitron put it into words I could've have here http://forum.toribash.com/showpost.p...0&postcount=17]
Neither is an adequate excuse. If a religion claims to be peaceful, then it is peaceful with no exceptions. If you claim a religion is peaceful, that statement is untrue if there is a single example of the opposite, which you so kindly presented yourself. It does not matter what time it was or what the intended goal was, you are using faulty logic.
You haven't replied to either PM or here.
I proved that you were making stuff up with the Mary thing, you still don't want to accept anything. Please please please link me to your trollsite.
"Do I need to cite the purpose of dark, heavy clothes in the desert? Common sense is enough to know that."
I already answered you in the view of Islam with evidence, if you're not happy with that, Velair answered you scientificaly. Still can't accept it? Why are you here then?
Your answer suggested that "Humility" was the prime reason. Velair's explained a couple out of a multitude of reasons behind it. I struggle to accept "Humility" as an answer for that.
You kinda didn't want to quote the earlier verse where the Quran talks about the rights of women?
In that verse, is says men are maintainers/protectors/guardians of women. Men are obliged to go out and work to pay for his wife and kids, because men are physically stronger to do so. While women are to look after what he has earned while he goes to work. However women can work too, and whatever they earn is their property, they don't have to spend it on the house. Men however, it's his responsibility to spend for the house. He does not have any right to take his wife's wealth. Though she may do it out of the kindness, he can't forcefully take from her. Women even get to keep their names instead of changing the last name.
The first women who were given right to own property were in 1882 under the "married women's property act" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married...perty_Act_1882
However, 1300 years ago, Islam has already introduced this.
In the verse before the one you quoted which you didn't want to expose.
Oh okay, lets just ignore everything else wrong with it then. You either have equality or you don't, there is no in-between when you say Islam includes equal rights for women and children.
"And covet not the thing in which Allah hath made some of you excel others. Unto men a fortune from that which they have earned, and unto women a fortune from that which they have earned. (Envy not one another) but ask Allah of His bounty. Lo! Allah is ever Knower of all things. (32) And unto each We have appointed heirs of that which parents and near kindred leave; and as for those with whom your right hands have made a covenant, give them their due. Lo! Allah is ever Witness over all things. (33)"
Islam cared about women rights before anyone else.
Lol
At that time, equal rights between men and women were unthinkable, but the quran constantly emphasized equality.
Is that so?
Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
“[3:195] Their Lord responded to them: “I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female — you are equal to one another.”
[4:124] As for those who lead a righteous life, male or female, while believing, they enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice.”
“[49:13] O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another.”
During that time, newborn girls were buried alive, because people were embarassed to have girls, thinking that they are a disadvantage to the family.
Islam came and stopped this.
And they ended up marrying off those 9 year old girls to 60 year old pedophiles. Progress!
Quran 81 7-9
And when souls are reunited, (7) And when the girl-child that was buried alive is asked (8 ) For what sin she was slain, (9)
When "beat" is used, it is a symbolic meaning, from the views and early Islamic scholars. The Prophet was asked about this particular verse, he replied by taking out a miswak( small wooden stick used to brush teeth, about 4-5inches long), and to tap the women on the area which hurts the less(buttocks), this is to make her think and to show that he is not joking, nothing more.
And when people refer to gassing during the holocaust, it is a symbolic meaning. My ass it is.
Why would the Quran want men to beat their wives to a pulp when it says "men are protectors of women"?
Because it was written by a lunatic who had frequent hallucinations and believed himself to be a prophet.
If you want to know about beating, read stories about drunk men in the west, actually all around the world.
Cool, this is relevant.
I may have some errors here and there with my debating skills, but I tried, any questions feel free to ask.
.
Hoss.
Guys if we are going to just end up quoting outdated section of religious scripture could we not do it in a thread based only on Islam. Many religions have scriptures which are dodgy. And yet, in the West we don't tend to consider Christianity as a direct danger to society or the general peace within the populace, so whether a religion has sections of scripture which are barbaric is largely unimportant to how dangerous the religion is. I am disappointed in this thread, what matters is the sagacity and effort put into thinking about your own point of view or interpretation of another point of view. Not whether you can offend someone by spamming the "The Quran is shit!" argument continuously and then acting like it is fine to make up everything else to your leisure.
Hyde, Islam is known for having cared about women's rights before the rest of the world did, unfortunately they under stepped the equality bar of the far future and haven't adapted their religion over time like most other religions. Stop arguing that Mohamed is at fault because from a historical perspective he was pretty dope. Your arguments should be "Islam is archaic and outdated and should adapt or be rejected by a world moving towards a future that Islam does not support" rather than "The Quran said something which is not acceptable to me 1000 years after it was written, therefore Islam must be stupid". I hope this wasn't a straw man because with the level of articulation your posts have I am struggling to take anything else from your arguments.
And about your smirky pedophilia comment. The Greeks, creators of much of modern mathematics, the idea of democracy, philosophy and many other staples of the developed world, found the idea of an older man having a younger (would be underaged for us) boy (possibly a slave or servant of sorts, but living in better conditions) to basically fuck. These older men often had wives and children of their own, but the Greeks accepted that a man could have an underaged toy boy at his command. And you are arguing that Islam is uncivilised because of pedophilia. I am too tired to find links right now, Maybe it was Romans not Greeks, I will try to remember to link tomorrow.
Hyde, Islam is known for having cared about women's rights before the rest of the world did, unfortunately they under stepped the equality bar of the far future and haven't adapted their religion over time like most other religions. Stop arguing that Mohamed is at fault because from a historical perspective he was pretty dope. Your arguments should be "Islam is archaic and outdated and should adapt or be rejected by a world moving towards a future that Islam does not support" rather than "The Quran said something which is not acceptable to me 1000 years after it was written, therefore Islam must be stupid". I hope this wasn't a straw man because with the level of articulation your posts have I am struggling to take anything else from your arguments.
And about your smirky pedophilia comment. The Greeks, creators of much of modern mathematics, the idea of democracy, philosophy and many other staples of the developed world, found the idea of an older man having a younger (would be underaged for us) boy (possibly a slave or servant of sorts, but living in better conditions) to basically fuck. These older men often had wives and children of their own, but the Greeks accepted that a man could have an underaged toy boy at his command. And you are arguing that Islam is uncivilised because of pedophilia. I am too tired to find links right now, Maybe it was Romans not Greeks, I will try to remember to link tomorrow.
Good morning sweet princess
