Originally Posted by Holotor
Excuse me? Are you literally saying that every single player online right now is playing solely to win? This is a game not an e-sport, stop treating it like a fucking e-sport. People are allowed to have fun with this game instead of playing like a piece of wood every single game. God damn.
But for those who aren't playing like a piece of wood and play fancy, still try to win the match. I don't think anyone plays not wanting to win, unless you're in xspar or something like that.
Curious aren't you.
It's just a different skill. It's a skill that correlates with one another, it's a skill that if you develop on one side you'll also be getting better at the other.
It's the same physics engine. Multiplayer is about addressing problems caused by the opponent while simultaneously creating problems for them. You only get 20 seconds to do that and any major misplay is the difference between lifting your opponent and being lifted out yourself.
Single player is usually about creating something pleasing to the eye. Sometimes you also aim to do more quantifiable things like break speed or DM records as well. You have the luxury of taking as much time, tries, retries, edits etc. down to the single frame by frame.
Yes "entry level" wise, multiplayer's skill floor is lower than single player. Mostly because if you don't know how to play Toribash, you're not going to do anything like Boom Hit Uke, but you could find out how to not fall in judofrac meanwhile your opponent double contacted his knees to essentially fling himself into DQ. Reaching the highest level of either SP or MP is insanely hard to do
There are very few amazing single player replay makers. Proportionately, if you're a single player replay maker, you have a higher likelihood at being really solid at it whereas in multiplayer the majority of players won't be extremely competitive. At the end of the day there are only a very small set of players who have reached an insanely high level of play across many mods.
This is apples and oranges though. We don't need to say "but this guy is one of the best lenshu players in Toribash and he admitted he can't do SP" or "This guy makes insane replays but is just dreadful in MP" just for the sake of it. People will end up working on what they find more enjoyable to do.
It's the same physics engine. Multiplayer is about addressing problems caused by the opponent while simultaneously creating problems for them. You only get 20 seconds to do that and any major misplay is the difference between lifting your opponent and being lifted out yourself.
Single player is usually about creating something pleasing to the eye. Sometimes you also aim to do more quantifiable things like break speed or DM records as well. You have the luxury of taking as much time, tries, retries, edits etc. down to the single frame by frame.
Yes "entry level" wise, multiplayer's skill floor is lower than single player. Mostly because if you don't know how to play Toribash, you're not going to do anything like Boom Hit Uke, but you could find out how to not fall in judofrac meanwhile your opponent double contacted his knees to essentially fling himself into DQ. Reaching the highest level of either SP or MP is insanely hard to do
There are very few amazing single player replay makers. Proportionately, if you're a single player replay maker, you have a higher likelihood at being really solid at it whereas in multiplayer the majority of players won't be extremely competitive. At the end of the day there are only a very small set of players who have reached an insanely high level of play across many mods.
This is apples and oranges though. We don't need to say "but this guy is one of the best lenshu players in Toribash and he admitted he can't do SP" or "This guy makes insane replays but is just dreadful in MP" just for the sake of it. People will end up working on what they find more enjoyable to do.
Last edited by Bodhisattva; Jul 22, 2015 at 12:27 PM.
Let's not omit one thing that comes of as a HUGE difference to most players; there is no going back in multiplayer. pusga, you can argue using your flawed logic omitting this substantial point and thus not get your message across to the wide community which inherently understands the fundamental difference of time pressure and the inevitability of time going forward, whilst you yourself picture both in a indefinite vacuum in which one is a spar with idk, 200h time-frames, whereas most other players put it realistically to the test in for example QA time-frames.
And how is that true? Most of us have come to the conclusion that multiplayer replays can also look good without being handcrafted in advance and then completed using a spar environment. You arguments are just as flawed as me comparing the average multiplayer game to the average single-player replay; aka complete rubbish in-between edits. If you want to compare one side of the high quality spectrum, that is good single-player replays, then make sure you compare them to the appropriate ones: the good multiplayer replays. Now, if you want to compare stuff, don't try to force it into your narrow flawed framework that simply is heavily singleplayer biased, and then don't come on the forum 100% narrow-minded and don't even try to grasp the other arguments posted.
And lets move on to the non-rewarding argument. How would you feel if you were the worlds best X. Let X be anything you want to be good at, and recognized being good at. Now, lets say X is playing Toribash, you specialty is aikido-based mods. My question to those who argue the non-reward-argument: Is there no value in being the worlds best competitive player at something? Is there no value in being the worlds best football player, chess player, Starcraft player etc? And don't add the money argument, as it's easier making money out of Toribash by earning TC than it is selling replays I'm sure.
Originally Posted by pusga
i agree. just saying because it might seem like I didn't from my previous post, but I do. multiplayer requires creativity in order to solve problems with as less effort as possible, while singleplayer requires creativity to create new things (extremely simply put)
And how is that true? Most of us have come to the conclusion that multiplayer replays can also look good without being handcrafted in advance and then completed using a spar environment. You arguments are just as flawed as me comparing the average multiplayer game to the average single-player replay; aka complete rubbish in-between edits. If you want to compare one side of the high quality spectrum, that is good single-player replays, then make sure you compare them to the appropriate ones: the good multiplayer replays. Now, if you want to compare stuff, don't try to force it into your narrow flawed framework that simply is heavily singleplayer biased, and then don't come on the forum 100% narrow-minded and don't even try to grasp the other arguments posted.
And lets move on to the non-rewarding argument. How would you feel if you were the worlds best X. Let X be anything you want to be good at, and recognized being good at. Now, lets say X is playing Toribash, you specialty is aikido-based mods. My question to those who argue the non-reward-argument: Is there no value in being the worlds best competitive player at something? Is there no value in being the worlds best football player, chess player, Starcraft player etc? And don't add the money argument, as it's easier making money out of Toribash by earning TC than it is selling replays I'm sure.
Now doing recoloring for people not in the clan as-well, PM for more info!
PROUD OWNER OF THORN'S GOOD ENOUGH WRITER AWARD!
PROUD OWNER OF THORN'S GOOD ENOUGH WRITER AWARD!
Originally Posted by apple123
But for those who aren't playing like a piece of wood and play fancy, still try to win the match. I don't think anyone plays not wanting to win, unless you're in xspar or something like that.
Nothing wrong with wanting to win, would be pointless playing a match where you get a hit in the first few frames then dance around for the rest of it waiting to end. It's a fighting game so you'd assume they'd be trying to fight (eg. comebacks and continuing to fight for the sake of the replay).
I guess I'm still looking at this game as more of an animation program like Pivot where I can look back at the replay/match and see the cool stuff I did instead of just playing a match for the sake of playing it and not doing anything decent-looking/eventful in the replay. What are replay threads for, right?
I'd play SP more but I enjoy having to react to what the opponent is doing (SP too lonely lmao).
Originally Posted by Holotor
I guess I'm still looking at this game as more of an animation program like Pivot where I can look back at the replay/match and see the cool stuff I did instead of just playing a match for the sake of playing it and not doing anything decent-looking/eventful in the replay. What are replay threads for, right?
I'd play SP more but I enjoy having to react to what the opponent is doing (SP too lonely lmao).
honestly I think this is the one weakness of singleplayer. The interaction of another player provides new situations that could potentially end up as unexpected creativity if used in singleplayer.
Originally Posted by Smogard49
Let's not omit one thing that comes of as a HUGE difference to most players; there is no going back in multiplayer. pusga, you can argue using your flawed logic omitting this substantial point and thus not get your message across to the wide community which inherently understands the fundamental difference of time pressure and the inevitability of time going forward, whilst you yourself picture both in a indefinite vacuum in which one is a spar with idk, 200h time-frames, whereas most other players put it realistically to the test in for example QA time-frames.
You are leaving out multiple factors of replaymaking.
1. Going by your logic, if one makes a mistake in singleplayer, he can just go back and erase it. This is absurdly far from reality, as most people don't even have the ability to spot mistakes and differences between his expectation and what he is actually doing ingame until late in his career. If you don't have a clear idea of what you're going for in your head, you are going to make mistakes and not even notice them, because you're not even sure of what you are doing or what you want to do. This is not something you fix by going back, this is something you fix by practicing and then examining the outcome.
It's not about simply using the E key or how some people see it the "eraser", it's about knowing when and how you need to use it. Here's something else for you to consider: a lot of "unique" and original replays are made by accident, because of incorrect use of the "eraser". Imagine that one would be 100% skilled at knowing when to use the "eraser". He would be able to replicate accurately his idea in the form of a replay but with no inspirational flexibility. Knowing when to take opportunities, even if they come by accident, is also a skill to use and improve in singleplayer. And it is not fixed or improved by going back. And no, this is not a gimmick that I made up and that literally nobody else experiences, this is part of almost every replaymaker's career at one point.
2. The power of editing and infinite time doesn't make it so that every replay one makes corresponds exactly to his inital idea, people are not machines. By that logic, then every replay is 10/10 in execution and should have no flaws. Replaymaking is not about editing something until it's just how you want it to be.
Making one good replay in your life doesn't make you a good replaymaker, because [monkey in a room with computer & toribash hypothesis]. This is why I inserted this line into one of my posts
Originally Posted by pusga
My idea of a great replaymaker is that he is able to consistently create replays which exemplify that
Consistently
The skill to be able to access a situation in a replay and reach the goal as quickly as possible is as honorable as the ability to predict and react in time to the opponent's approach. This quality is observable in a replaymaker when he is able to create quality replays frequently, not necessarily by watching one replay by the guy.
Originally Posted by Smogard49
And how is that true? Most of us have come to the conclusion that multiplayer replays can also look good without being handcrafted in advance and then completed using a spar environment.
but I didn't say that that can't, I simply said that if you want to successfully play by the rules that the game provides in multiplayer, you need to be able to be creative in how you solve your problems in order to surprise your opponent while taking few risks.
Originally Posted by Smogard49
selling replays
do you really think this is a thing?
Now, if you want to compare stuff, don't try to force it into your narrow flawed framework that simply is heavily singleplayer biased, and then don't come on the forum 100% narrow-minded and don't even try to grasp the other arguments posted.
absurdity, I have never expressed any bias towards either side. My "framework" was as objective as I could make it, and at its core multiplayer is a lot more objective than singleplayer. I have a stronger opinion on singleplayer because I have more experience in it, doesn't mean that I prefer it. Of course I'm gonna talk a lot about the thing I know more about than the other :O
Last edited by pusga; Jul 22, 2015 at 05:04 PM.
oh yeah
