Toribash
Original Post
Revive Toribash
Toribash needs a revive, all it will take is a superficial update with flashy marketing/advertising, some swagged out videos. and then active moderating on beginner servers to keep out smurfs. with decent marketing and decent moderating 100% this game can get a revive, there is no other game competing against it.

Plz don't let it die slowly as its player base gets older and fades away.
Originally Posted by nikosefs View Post
i already said this about alts tyzi.

...that math isn't anything close to accurate either.

also, achievements are nothing new to be suggested. not sure how the devs are doing with that..
Originally Posted by Kaneki333 View Post
I'm Brazilian, i'm alredy fucked every day i wake up

I'm telling you to solve that problem just force people to make a new* email for every account like ANY game does.

*this is important that it is a NEW email so emails can not just be reused when one is made.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[VIBE] 2015~2016 | Team Pokemon | [Origin] 2014~2015 | Team Aikido | [Obey] ~Because Frost Said So...
Talking about this stuff isn't gonna change anything so how are we gonna make humpu read this?

(@arctic don't infract me again for saying what is needed to be said)
Having less Public rooms would be nice, first thing i noticed when coming back(today) was how empty almost all of the rooms were.
Originally Posted by TyZi View Post
...that math isn't anything close to accurate either.

if you wanna look at the exact numbers,here they are:

big number



now i can't know how many alts,bots,instabanned or n-word names
are there,but they would be on the lower belts,lets say from white to black,
what about the rest of the players that stopped playing from dan to dan?
14k people went to 2nd dan,only 8k went to 3rd and so on.

also lets look at the interest in toribash according to google trends:
https://www.google.com/trends/explor...all&q=toribash

we have lower activity now than when the game came out in 2007,
Last edited by nikosefs; Dec 15, 2016 at 09:45 AM.
Just so everyone knows, we are reading this and we're looking into long-term plans to increase the playerbase over the coming year. It's going to take time and a great deal of planning but it's naive to think we're happy with everything as it is. Here's a little look in to my thought process at this time - feel free to discuss and chime in, more suggestions means more potential improvement.

So, Toribash has three pillars in which the game appeals to new users and three anchors that wall them off. These anchors currently outweigh the pillars currently and as a result we do not retain a vast number of unique users. This is what they are:

Pillars (interesting and engaging features for the new user)

  • Mods
  • Customisation
  • Free game with interesting looking gameplay

Anchors (reasons users stop playing, by and large)

  • Learning curve
  • Presentation & documentation
  • Small development team

(Some of you are going to decry the fact ranked matchmaking isn't listed as an anchor. I'll get to that later.)

I feel like the pros are all self explanatory. Mods add replayability to the game, both casually and competitively and a means for the community's creative minds to engage in content creation. Customisation stimulates a real in-game economy, allows users to establish an identity and now even act as another way for our creatives to get their work into the game. Lastly, we can all agree that Toribash looks great in motion. Most people got pulled in by seeing the awesome stuff our community can do to in replays and hell, it's a free game with a small download. Why not give it a try? All strong groundwork that we should continue to build on.

With that said, lets acknowledge our flaws.

This game is god damn hard to learn and it's one of the few games where the tutorial doesn't really do anything but add bad openers to your muscle memory. It's not so much a learning curve as it is over a learning wall with a steep incline. I think this is easily the biggest reason we lose players because outside of watching replays and doing the tutorial most new players will spend their first 30 minutes falling over in a turn-based fashion which is slow, boring and repetitive. Newer players will likely almost feel lied to because what they saw from trailers and videos is simply not what they're getting. Check any media that markets the game - you will see fast, explosive replays and sped up footage of turnframes. The reality is that the moment to moment gameplay of Toribash is meticulously tactical and for that reason it's slow, nothing like what the new user is expecting. Not only this but there are many mechanics that the game does not explain to you and little to no up-to-date official documentation that explains the nuances of the game. The only given here that we have to deal with is the nature of the small development team. It's been discussed at length that the implementation of features directly correlates to the amount of people working on the game (not many) and though this doesn't affect newer users so much it does cause older users to feel as though the game is stagnating. The only solution here is to hire more developers which obviously comes with a monetary drawback but I don't doubt that Nabi would hire provided the game grew to a point where it made sense financially to do so. So, with that said lets consider the following:

  1. Lessening the learning curve.

    I have been sitting on an idea for this myself. I think there's been a few suggestions that have missed what it means to actually reduce the gameplay to a manageable level for new players and the solution is the ability to group joints under a custom preset that the player can define. So when a player goes into singleplayer they can define body parts (eg: right arm = wrist, elbow, shoulder & pec) and save movements to that body part on a certain turnframe with a name (eg: "punch wind up") and then load that during multiplayer and singleplayer matches from a list on-screen. The user can combine these movements alongside fine tuning with mouseclicks as normal to complete their moves quickly in a way that they understand (after all, they did make the moves). Combined these could form openers and situational movements depending on how much they utilised the feature. Taking this to the next level would be allowing users to upload, share and rate their preset moves so that the burden of finding out what works and what doesn't isn't on the new player.

  2. More useful tutorial, challenges and other singleplayer content.

    The tutorial does a good job of teaching people to grab and move the most basic of joints but it doesn't test the player in any meaningful way after the fact. The match against uke at the end, despite its flaws, is a good first test for the player simply because it's there. There needs to be more challenges like this that test the player's competence before throwing them at other players. Imagine a challenge section for new players that scales in difficulty, e.g: balance for 500f/50tf without dq in a small dojo -> balance for 500f/50tf without dq + moving 5 joints a turn -> balance on this pole for 500f/50tf without dq -> balance on a smaller pole without hands for 500f/50tf without dq

    We need to see things like that. We can reward people for completion a number of ways and append more challenges to that list as the ideas come. We could add parkour maps, "beat this opener" (specify uke to do an opener, etc.) dismemberment challenges, you name it. Not only would it mean the user has some sort of handle on the game past the very basics but there's no reason we couldn't also make really tough challenges for the older players who want singleplayer content that comes with bragging rights upon completion.

  3. Marketing Toribash to the hardcore audience as well as the casual.

    Marketing in the past hasn't really had any concrete figures mostly because they weren't recorded at the time (not a mistake we're going to make again, I assure you) but having been in the game myself when the game was being marketed I can say that the effect wasn't lost on people. We had new users come when the game was promoted on Youtube via. trailers/big channels playing it, the only issue is that we kept very few of them. That's mostly because of the listed anchors but also because we've never once tried attacking those people who are looking for a brutally difficult skill-based game that essentially has no limit on creativity. Why not look for those players and market this game locally on strategy/simulation game forums/communities? It seems by and large we've been poaching casual players far too often - before we do that again we should target the audience that makes the most sense THEN go for the casuals once we lessen the learning curve and make the gameplay more accessible.

  4. Adding resources that players can learn from.

    Where's the match history? Why isn't saving my own & other people's moves easy? Why don't replays show statistics, or move breakdown per turn? Why isn't there any videos showing the range of movement for each joint? Why isn't there an official explanation as to how certain mechanics work in the game (bruising, fractures, double grabs)? Why isn't there a place that shows the official mods' layout, playstyle, top players etc? Why isn't there official documentation on how to modmake?

    The list goes on. Some of these things are easily dodged by telling the user to consult the behemoth that is the (probably outdated, likely too long-winded) forum FAQ but consider the fact that newer users probably aren't aware that the forum exists and even if they are they do not want to spend more time sifting through the FAQ to find answers to questions that likely won't make them any better at the game in any short breath. They're asking to understand the game at the base level - this should be something the game has in it in a simple and accessible format. All games with a steep learning are their own best source of documentation - look at almost any MOBA (arguably the closest thing in terms of depth mechanically to Toribash other than fighting games which ALSO have this level of documentation (unless you're sleep fighter xD)) they all have a learning tab of some sort and this helps wonders for general game knowledge and understanding.

Now with all that said let me address ranked and why I haven't mentioned it. We're talking about "revival", namely this means pulling users we don't currently have. We need an in-pouring of unique users in order to increase the playerbase meaningfully (read as: past a point of being stagnant and having a net gain) and as a result we should focus on things that directly improve the user experience on a level that those new, unique users will be at. Ranked matchmaking in any game is generally something a user visits once they're confident enough in their skill level that they give it a go though I believe the majority of users we lose never even make it to ranked, let alone multiplayer. Now, this does not mean ranked will not be getting looked at, in fact as per the current ranked discussion you can see developer interaction. It simply means that if we're talking about pulling new users we should consider things that put new users off, ranked is not one of those things. The way ranked is puts established players off and whilst you guys are just as important as the new guys but it does not belong in discussion about revival, it's more for a discussion about maintenance and improvement.
Last edited by Gynx; Dec 15, 2016 at 10:29 PM.
collect snots from the nose
Maybe we should get an official youtube channel for toribash led by the staff and other members of the community, we can upload tutorials, livestream events, have giveaways n shit...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nomad Moderated Message:
Be more straightforward with your uplifting messages or I'll fucking skin you alive.
While talking about things that put new users off, Can we establish something that prevents the obvious massive alternate account problem. Its become so common-place that Duelers use it as a strategy to gain an advantage. I cant go to any competitive server; Tourney, Betserver, Dueling Server, Without seeing a white-belt named "Insert dank meme here" who moves like a real 10th dan would. I mean If I wasn't already pretty decent at the game it would annoy me to no end that so many people disguise themselves as low level players.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[VIBE] 2015~2016 | Team Pokemon | [Origin] 2014~2015 | Team Aikido | [Obey] ~Because Frost Said So...
[LIST=1][*]Lessening the learning curve.

I have been sitting on an idea for this myself. I think there's been a few suggestions that have missed what it means to actually reduce the gameplay to a manageable level for new players and the solution is the ability to group joints under a custom preset that the player can define. So when a player goes into singleplayer they can define body parts (eg: right arm = wrist, elbow, shoulder & pec) and save movements to that body part on a certain turnframe with a name (eg: "punch wind up") and then load that during multiplayer and singleplayer matches from a list on-screen. The user can combine these movements alongside fine tuning with mouseclicks as normal to complete their moves quickly in a way that they understand (after all, they did make the moves). Combined these could form openers and situational movements depending on how much they utilised the feature. Taking this to the next level would be allowing users to upload, share and rate their preset moves so that the burden of finding out what works and what doesn't isn't on the new player.

I think there is an easy way to solve this and make the beginner gameplay a bit easier for players. I think that move memory scripts should be installed in the game by default, and that it should come with a preset of moves approved for beginners. I'm sure the community could band together to make a set of five of so openers with counters to them, just enough to cover the first two turns of all the current competitive beginner mods, such as Judo and Aikido. For example in Aikido you could have stocked grab openers, then options for openers like basic Knees, or kick setups.


[*]More useful tutorial, challenges and other singleplayer content.

The tutorial does a good job of teaching people to grab and move the most basic of joints but it doesn't test the player in any meaningful way after the fact. The match against uke at the end, despite its flaws, is a good first test for the player simply because it's there. There needs to be more challenges like this that test the player's competence before throwing them at other players. Imagine a challenge section for new players that scales in difficulty, e.g: balance for 500f/50tf without dq in a small dojo -> balance for 500f/50tf without dq + moving 5 joints a turn -> balance on this pole for 500f/50tf without dq -> balance on a smaller pole without hands for 500f/50tf without dq

We need to see things like that. We can reward people for completion a number of ways and append more challenges to that list as the ideas come. We could add parkour maps, "beat this opener" (specify uke to do an opener, etc.) dismemberment challenges, you name it. Not only would it mean the user has some sort of handle on the game past the very basics but there's no reason we couldn't also make really tough challenges for the older players who want singleplayer content that comes with bragging rights upon completion.

I can't find the old thread, but there is an old thread that I created with a plan for a more in-depth tutorial system that focused on teaching players not openers, but more of how each joint moves, the motion it creates, and how to combine different joints in order to reach a desired motions. The tutorial was based on having floating balls with win triggers, and on screen text. The text would tell the player how to move in order to touch the ball (contract right pec, right rotate chest), and then have the player repeat it another time without instruction. I cant' find the thread myself, but I'm sure someone here with the ability to search my user information for all my created threads can find it easy.

Note: It was stated that they were going to work on this suggestion of mine, but I never saw any actual progress come about.


[*]Marketing Toribash to the hardcore audience as well as the casual.

Marketing in the past hasn't really had any concrete figures mostly because they weren't recorded at the time (not a mistake we're going to make again, I assure you) but having been in the game myself when the game was being marketed I can say that the effect wasn't lost on people. We had new users come when the game was promoted on Youtube via. trailers/big channels playing it, the only issue is that we kept very few of them. That's mostly because of the listed anchors but also because we've never once tried attacking those people who are looking for a brutally difficult skill-based game that essentially has no limit on creativity. Why not look for those players and market this game locally on strategy/simulation game forums/communities? It seems by and large we've been poaching casual players far too often - before we do that again we should target the audience that makes the most sense THEN go for the casuals once we lessen the learning curve and make the gameplay more accessible.

As for this I've seen videos in the past of one youtuber having his fans send him openers, and because of this his content for the game, and depiction of it was generally better. I think that the creation of press account for youtubers would be a good idea: An account with a few no Qi items so they can show off the base level character customization, a 512 head to show people the more in-depth customization, and a few of the flames that the Market Squad has confiscated in the past. Then make it transparent that all items given will be revoked after a 3 week period, and maybe let them keep some items as a thank you for showing off the game. There are more options as well, as setting them up in a relationship with established players, and having said player show them the game a bit, so that they aren't just fumbling around, but have someone showing them basic game mechanics, fun mods, and the good points of the community.


Where's the match history? Why isn't saving my own & other people's moves easy?

For that all we really need to do it turn on Auto Saving of replays on by default, and making players aware that its on, and where they can access it.
Last edited by Kohta; Dec 16, 2016 at 09:58 AM.
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