Christmas Lottery
I think people are over-analyizing this topic to an extra-ordinary height, Lol.
"Life has a funny way of throwing wet sponges at our dreams." ~ MoreTh>n Freeman
Intelligence in schools has nothing to do with this topic. The most intelligent person in a school is the most intelligent ant in a colony. Being an intelligent person in high school (at least mine) makes you a step up from (I shall list the percentages by demographic)

Potheads (25%)
Ignorant Black People (35%)
Ignorant White People (10%)
Preps/Jocks (5%)
Children of Illegal Mexican Immigrants (23.5%)
The Mentally Handicapped (3%)
Future Yuppies (1%)
Other (Somewhat) Legitimately Intelligent People (3%)
Kids Who Will Have an AA Degree Before They Get A Diploma (.5%)

Way to go, buddy.
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When life gives you lemons, FIND A NEW GOD!
Odlov, as much as I agree with you on some other topics, I must say that you are quite wrong about insticts. We are nowhere near reaching the capability to mechanically alter the human brain- it is an organ so complex it is practically an organism in and of itself. And instincts cannot be suppressed. To repress our own instincts would be to remove an entire portion of the brain (the hindbrain)- which, coincidentally enough, also plays a great deal in balance and motor coordination. Also, instincts never "go away". A stimulus experienced on the 15th birthday of an individual that is repeated on their 55th birthday will elicit a very similar response- instincts cannot be removed because they HELP US SURVIVE. As a matter of fact, there are some instincts involved with peripheral vision that archaeology and psychobiology both agree may have been present as early as the early Neolithic era that we still have today. We may no longer need these instincts in today's society, but our ancestors passed them on as a survival trait and they are here to stay. TL/DR Version- We can't remove our instincts because they make it possible to survive.
[Piratez]
I am neither Oyster nor lsl.
Originally Posted by hydrotoxin View Post
Odlov, as much as I agree with you on some other topics, I must say that you are quite wrong about insticts. We are nowhere near reaching the capability to mechanically alter the human brain- it is an organ so complex it is practically an organism in and of itself. And instincts cannot be suppressed. To repress our own instincts would be to remove an entire portion of the brain (the hindbrain)- which, coincidentally enough, also plays a great deal in balance and motor coordination. Also, instincts never "go away". A stimulus experienced on the 15th birthday of an individual that is repeated on their 55th birthday will elicit a very similar response- instincts cannot be removed because they HELP US SURVIVE. As a matter of fact, there are some instincts involved with peripheral vision that archaeology and psychobiology both agree may have been present as early as the early Neolithic era that we still have today. We may no longer need these instincts in today's society, but our ancestors passed them on as a survival trait and they are here to stay. TL/DR Version- We can't remove our instincts because they make it possible to survive.

I did quite a research a few years back. For term paper, nothing less.
You can disregard the biological shape and distribution of brain functions completely - those will all be adjusted/changed in due time.
When you look at it from evolutionary perspective, instincts come and go just like the shape of our body. Only ones which stayed with us since bacterium stage are: survival and reproductive ones. We are now slowly entering the age of transhumanism, or man-guided evolution. Advances in nanotechnology and anatomy will allow wonderful things. Who is to say which instincts will stay and which will be suppressed when your intelligence is multiplied by 5000? We will find out. Anyway, i won't blabber on about transhumanism and perspectives, but you see where I'm going with it.
Perhaps in due time our brain structure will change- but you and I will be long dead before this happens. As for transhumanism, it too has existed since the Neolithic age (Epic of Gilgamesh sound familiar?), and while the desire to become more than human is as strong as ever, we still do not have the technology to make it possible. While I see exactly where you are coming from, and agree to an extent, I try to keep things present-tense, because the aspects of transhumanism that you are alluding to are far, far away. Nanotechnology is still in it's infancy, the only part of the Darwinistic theory of biological (not transhumanistic) evolution that has been shown true is microevolution. Eventually, once we reach a Class One (maybe even Class Two) civilization status as a planetary population, we might be able to alter our own bodies to the extent of actually physically altering brain structure, but that is thousands of years away.
[Piratez]
I am neither Oyster nor lsl.
Wow -- mega surprised you brought up the whole "microevolution" thing.
So what about countless layers of fossils, going from simplest to complex? What about DNA retroviruses evidence? Is that microevolution at works?
Seriously, i expected some lousy apologist to bring that up, but not you.

PS: it's much, much sooner than you predict -- waaay sooner than planetary colonization. Just read some media on nanotechnology and what it can potentially do -- it's hardly science fiction. It's also directly connected to computer power we posses. And that doubles every year and will exceed human brain capability (supposedly in all aspects) in 2030.
PSS: a good series to watch on this topic is Technocalyps: Transhuman
PSSS: i used to have several topics on things like transhumanism and digital immortality even, but those were deleted along with the good old debate board. I wish i could be arsed to dig the links up, but i can't.
Last edited by Odlov; Oct 16, 2009 at 09:04 PM.
The fossil record is not as conclusive as you might think- and I should have stated the microevolutionary point differently. It is not the only (probably) correct Darwinian theory, but it is the only one that has been definitively proven time and time again. While the fossil record does become vastly more complex, it is a process that takes place over so many millions of years that one can almost mark it off surely as highly progressive microevolution, not necessarily macroevolution. And I would certainly like to see some of the research that you speak of on nanotechnology. A large part of my base of knowledge comes from physics and weapons technology, and I don't keep up with humanitarian/medicinal technology as much. However, certain things that I have seen and read (from credible sources, not some nobody from Podunkville with a dial-up internet connection and a forum-trolling habit) concur that such leaps and bounds are nowhere near. But I am open-minded- feel free to prove me wrong.
Last edited by hydrotoxin; Oct 17, 2009 at 02:11 AM.
[Piratez]
I am neither Oyster nor lsl.
Originally Posted by hydrotoxin View Post
The fossil record is not as conclusive as you might think- and I should have stated the microevolutionary point differently. It is not the only (probably) correct Darwinian theory, but it is the only one that has been definitively proven time and time again.

Forget Darwin -- he didn't know a lot of the things we know today -- think modern evolutionary synthesis. Plus, there is a plethora of genetic evidence besides the fossil record.

While the fossil record does become vastly more complex, it is a process that takes place over so many millions of years that one can almost mark it off surely as highly progressive microevolution, but necessarily macroevolution.

And what might the difference be between "microevolution over millions of years" and simply "macroevolution"? Seems to me there is none.

And- not trying to patronize you here- I would certainly like to see some of the research that you speak of on nanotechnology. A large part of my base of knowledge comes from physics and weapons technology, and I don't keep up with humanitarian/medicinal technology as much. However, certain things that I have seen and read (from credible sources, not some nobody with) concur that such leaps and bounds are nowhere near. But I am open-minded- feel free to prove me wrong.

I'll see if i can retrieve the links from deleted board.
Last edited by Odlov; Oct 16, 2009 at 09:19 PM.
Darwin forgotten- I will most certainly reference modern evolutionary synthesis in the future. I tend to forget that not all evolutionists are Darwinists. And just to clarify, macroevolution is evolution on the "grand scale" resulting in the origin of higher taxa, microevolution is the adaptation and mutation of organisms over a period of time, and is heavily tied in with natural selection and the like. We are now on the same page, I believe.
[Piratez]
I am neither Oyster nor lsl.
Originally Posted by hydrotoxin View Post
Darwin forgotten- I will most certainly reference modern evolutionary synthesis in the future. I tend to forget that not all evolutionists are Darwinists. And just to clarify, macroevolution is evolution on the "grand scale" resulting in the origin of higher taxa, microevolution is the adaptation and mutation of organisms over a period of time, and is heavily tied in with natural selection and the like. We are now on the same page, I believe.

And pardon me, what is "Darwinism"?

I don't even recognize the term. Is it someone who agrees with 100% of what is said in origin of species? Or someone who simply accepts evolution via natural selection? Modern biologists are as much Gregor Mendelists as they are Darwinists as well as other "ists" which completed the theory since Darwin.
PS: you seem to use a lot of modern creationist jargon, which is amusing seeing how you are a nihilist and atheist.