God: why i reject the idea (Page 9)

tatsujay

Feb 6, 2010

tatsujay

Member

Join Date: Feb 2009

Feb 6, 2010

I read the post...You didn't plainly say that he could...

what you said was:

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster

there are scriptures in the Bible many people call "Prophecy" because they predict a future event. Usually, there is some corresponding future event in the Bible that goes exactly as the prophecy said it would. Assuming this is true, God has the ability to predict anything and everything, and the power to change it, but then comes his own free will.

Also you the key words are "Assuming this is true"... So is it true?... Do you even know?... So how exactly would me reading the post (or not) have anything to do with the questions (or the answers)? That is almost completely disregarding the fact that a "Prophecy" isn't an exact explanation of what the future entails as much as it is the a general outline of roughly what is about to happen...Also in "Reality" not all Prophecies come true...

p.s. You only answered one question..

Last edited by tatsujay; Feb 6, 2010 at 07:40 PM.

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*SkulFuk

Feb 6, 2010

*SkulFuk

Join Date: Mar 2008

Feb 6, 2010

Originally Posted by m0o

You can't prove god and you can't disprove it. State your belief and fuck off.

/me applauds

Arguing about if there is a God is akin to arguing over why your religion is the correct one and all the others are bollocks. It never achieves anything as there is no proof, not to mention the it's all based on belief. Each to their own.

Personally, I'll believe it either when I see it or when someone can produce solid evidence.

<Erf> SkulFuk: gf just made a toilet sniffing joke at me
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Ragdollmaster

Feb 6, 2010

Ragdollmaster

ub3r

Join Date: Mar 2007

Feb 6, 2010

Originally Posted by FFS

I read the post...You didn't plainly say that he could...

Originally Posted by Ragdollmaster

God has the ability to predict anything and everything,

OH MY BAD I SHOULD HAVE MADE THAT CLEARER I SUPPOSE.

Originally Posted by tatsujay

... So is it true?... Do you even know?... So how exactly would me reading the post (or not) have anything to do with the questions (or the answers)? That is almost completely disregarding the fact that a "Prophecy" isn't an exact explanation of what the future entails as much as it is the a general outline of roughly what is about to happen...Also in "Reality" not all Prophecies come true...

Yes, I know with 100% certainty that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God exists. I'm just deciding not to share my proof. How do you know you aren't living in a simulation of reality and that everyone you know is an illusion powered by artificial intelligence? I really can't see where you're going with your line of questioning/reasoning.

Are you even reading your posts before you hit "Submit Reply"?

How to complain in style: GG, Mahulk.

Dread

Feb 6, 2010

Dread

Member

Join Date: Jul 2009

Feb 6, 2010

Is somebody doubting my invisible wizard that lives in the sky?

I am by spatula is my nose my prized bear spaghetti
~Odlov

Muffindo

Feb 6, 2010

Muffindo

Forumite

Join Date: Sep 2008

Feb 6, 2010

@Ragdollmaster: This thread might interest you, there's a nice conversation about what we know and what we think (illusions etc.) before it turned to total chaos.

Personally, I agree with everything Oldov stated and I have a couple more arguments of my own but I think this thread is too personal to be a discussion. Since we're dealing with beliefs I would have prefered to see this in Rapid Threads (yea, I know that giant well-constructed threads don't come to mind when you think of Rapid Threads...).

Although I don't plan on following this debate for long, I'd like to link the idea of "future omniscience", or prediction which some people here have denied with omnipotence, present omniscience and creation. The fact that a hypothetical god would know every factor that decides an action (I'm using the caus-consequence logic here) because he created it and because he knows it all simultaniously means that if he's omnipotent, he's able to deduce the future and therefore predict it and know what will happen. This also comes in conflict with free will since I think that every decision has a cause and can be predicted if you know all the possible causes and are able to assemble them.

Induced Juxtaposition

Odlov

Feb 6, 2010

Odlov

Join Date: Jul 2007

Feb 6, 2010

To a couple off-topic statements people posted:

"These are people's beliefs, leave them alone"

So? Everything you hold to be true is a belief by a stretch. I see no reason to isolate any ones in some untouchable bubble which is immune to discussion.

"You can't prove non-existence of god!"

I agree, just like you can't prove false any claim which is placed somewhere far outside our reach. What I'm doing here is showing why qualities assigned to god are philosophically troublesome, and actions assigned to him bluntly contradict evidence.

Here is my favorite analogy of god concept, from Carl Sagan:

Suppose I claim i have a dragon in my garage.
"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.
"Where's the dragon?" you ask.
"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."
You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.
"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."
Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.
"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."
You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.
"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work. Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?

Originally Posted by Squiziph

[I]If god knows everything, he knows the future ,past and now. Knowing something does not make you control it, it simply means you know it, just because god isnt surprised doesnt mean he must be pulling your strings.

Yes, knowing something does not make you control it. That said, we are talking about god: all-knowing designer of all that exists. He personally designed all the elements in the universe, not excluding you.

That leads me to believe god is timeless and therefore endless and therefore logic on his level would be incomprehensible for us, since we ( I believe ) are bound by time and very much have our ends and therefore now experience or true insight in that which has no end.

Timeless? Seems like he acts within time in the bible. Even if we are talking about deistic god, the mere act of creation of the universe must have happened in some type of time.

Again we have no insight in how something omnipotent would experience good or evil.

Yes we do - from the bible.
If you are defending deistic god - then i wholly agree. Good and bad are, at the end, strictly subjective terms we label favorable and unfavorable actions/states with. But i was more focusing on Christianity here.

That piece of the puzzle looks like chaos but maybe when you put it together with a trillion other pieces its a piece of art. We will ( probably ) never know.

Piece of puzzle? Should we take solace in the fact that our descendants may experience all the "good stuff" god has to offer? I am arguing from our present experiences, which are often bad.

Now you are taking it more to the book and the statements within it instead of the god concept itself.

Concept of biblical god is derived from statements in the same book.

War_Hero

Feb 7, 2010

War_Hero

Death awaits me...

Join Date: Jun 2007

Feb 7, 2010

Could god make a game so hard that he couldn't beat it?

i have a totally post modern tattoo of a scalene triangle.

<DeadorK> fair maiden
<DeadorK> if the cum is going to be in your mouth
<DeadorK> it shall be in mine as well

deady

Feb 7, 2010

deady

Chatterbox

Join Date: Mar 2008

Feb 7, 2010

Originally Posted by War_Hero

Could god make a game so hard that he couldn't beat it?

...yes....I mean no!...but, he could, it would just be...........!!!!!!!!!!!!! *asplodes*

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Bodhisattva

Feb 7, 2010

Bodhisattva

Super Moderator

Join Date: Nov 2008

Feb 7, 2010

Oh joy, here come the god paradoxes to ruin yet another actual debate formulated by great points =/

I will just make one point concerning a point someone made earlier, not planing on arguing it all the way, I just happened to see it.

"Why would god create the devil?"

Well. Because god wanted you to make the right decisions. But in order for god to see whether or not you will, he needs an opposition. So he creates a perfect angel, who becomes greedy, eventually controls hell and becomes known as "The Devil" or "Satan" or "Diablo" or "Beezleboss", etc. etc. All descriptive words in any language are relative. To say one is holy, righteous, spiritual, moral, "good", requires the opposite or lesser of that quality to be compared to. Satan needs to be created for the epitome of evil and sins to exist. With such, god can show humanity what NOT to do, and compare his right, to the devil's wrong.

Also, I think these types of debates foil down to specific questions. Here is one question maybe the people actively posting here can discuss: Say there is a God, which is all-knowing and all powerful, and therefore we don't have free-will, just the illusion of such, when in reality we are all puppets to the game of life which God has designed for us. Would this or would this not provide a more acceptable, understandable, figure for people to believe in for atheists or not?

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Squiziph

Feb 7, 2010

Squiziph

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Join Date: Feb 2008

Feb 7, 2010

Yes, knowing something does not make you control it. That said, we are talking about god: all-knowing designer of all that exists. He personally designed all the elements in the universe, not excluding you.

While doing that he used his freewill while not being bound by time, in combination with omnipotence ( being everywhere and everything at the same time ) he also is within you and therefore freewill already was ,is and forever will be. Timelessness could just as well be each an every moment at the same time for all we know, we can’t understand not being bound by time, we cannot grasp it, we are bound to certain dimensions therefore we can only speculate from the point of which we perceive, ( I think ) it is one of the strongest points to make for a hypothetic god energy. And I think this is at least part of the reason why some people in this thread say it’s stupid to be debating over. And in all honesty I just wanted to react because it seemed to me that you thought you are less clueless for choosing not to believe in god.
it is important to stay honest about how clueless we actually are and not jump to any silly fanatic conclusions based on 100% subjective perceptions .
( at least I think so )
Why must he design to be able to create, is that because you don’t know any other way? This could also interpreted like you would know how creating anything in timelessness works which I think you don’t.

Timeless? Seems like he acts within time in the bible. Even if we are talking about deistic god, the mere act of creation of the universe must have happened in some type of time.

You seem to believe this must be, I just take it you made this conclusion never having experienced timelessness and without any insight in such a thing.

Yes we do - from the bible.
If you are defending deistic god - then i wholly agree. Good and bad are, at the end, strictly subjective terms we label favorable and unfavorable actions/states with. But i was more focusing on Christianity here.

Okay then , my mistake.

Piece of puzzle? Should we take solace in the fact that our descendants may experience all the "good stuff" god has to offer? I am arguing from our present experiences, which are often bad.

This just makes the timelessness point more solid, here you reason out of time and you do not see the slightest possibility that maybe you are already getting all the good and maybe the bad is just as good as the good. My point was that it could as well be that we are staring ourselves blind on 1 piece while there is an entire puzzle into eternity. Standing in one point of time and viewing past sequences can make it look to you as favorable events in which things were good, and someone in the sequence you are looking at is looking back at you and sees only favorable events, while both could be lacking the insight to see what is good about their events. It is weird but if we need to be able to feel sorrow to experience a feeling as true happiness, then how “bad” can that sorrow be.

Concept of biblical god is derived from statements in the same book.

I agree, though concept of the biblical god may vary because of interpretations of statements per individual. Which there are very many of.
It all just comes down to our freedom of choice to believe in anything we want ( I think ) and I choose to try just to be patient and to try not turning into a fanatic in anything, if that’s even possible.

Down here is my sort of believe ( sort of, of topic, but i think nevertheless a good read ) one of my favorites

The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think that it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly coloured, and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question - is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us. They say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride.' And we...kill those people. Ha ha ha. 'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride. SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter because: it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings, and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourselves off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what you can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defence each year, and instead spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, for ever, in peace

Bill Hicks

Last edited by Squiziph; Feb 7, 2010 at 02:58 AM.

"I dissaprove of what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it"

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