Toribash
Originally Posted by deprav View Post
he used " ... " , his whole post is a citation of someone explaining what CISPA is and how it is dangerous.

Because someone said so therefore it is true and needs no citations?
CISPA is the contentious bill civil liberties advocates fought last year, which would provide a poorly-defined "cybersecurity" exception to existing privacy law.

Citations not given.
CISPA offers broad immunities to companies who choose to share data with government agencies (including the private communications of users) in the name of cybersecurity.

"broad immunities"
What. Citations not given....
It also creates avenues for companies to share data with any federal agencies, including military intelligence agencies like the National Security Agency (NSA).

There was no special mention of the NSA as I recall, why do they single them out?
“CISPA is deeply flawed. Under a broad cybersecurity umbrella, it permits companies to share user communications directly with the super secret NSA and permits the NSA to use that information for non-cybersecurity reasons. This risks turning the cybersecurity program into a back door intelligence surveillance program run by a military entity with little transparency or public accountability.”

Once again, no citations. The definition is very strict, and nothing suggests any personal data would be transmitted at all. It does not allow "any" data to be transmitted, only threat data. Why would the NSA have transparency? What on earth, that is a completely different issue just shoved in at random.
Indeed, merely using a proxy or anonymization service to let you browse the web privately could be construed to be a cybersecurity threat indicator. Using cryptography to protect one's communications or access systems securely could similarly be taken as a way to defeat an operational control.

Obviously none of this criticism is valid any more, but I will address it. anonymization or proxy has legitimate use and is not an indicator, furthermore neither that or encryption threatens a specific system so does not fit the definition.
First, CISPA would still give businesses1 the power to use "cybersecurity systems" to obtain any "cybersecurity threat information" (CTI)—which could include personal communications—about a percieved threat to their networks or systems. The only limitation is that the company must act for a "cybersecurity purpose," which is vaguely defined to include such things as "safeguarding" networks.

Obviously abuse will be punished. USA is not so idiotic that they will let anything slide so long as people say so right? I can't go and shoot someone at random then say they threatened me, and the police will just take my word for it? Why would people think the same of cyber security?
At the same time, CISPA would also create a broad immunity from legal liability for monitoring, acquiring, or sharing CTI, so long as the entity acted “in good faith.” Our concern from day one has been that these combined power and immunity provisions would override existing privacy laws like the Wiretap Act and the Stored Communications Act.

Of course, "in good faith". Why would anyone have a problem with someone protecting their resources in good faith? If someone abuses their rights they should be punished, as I already said.
Information provided to the federal government under CISPA would be exempt from the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) and other state laws that could otherwise require disclosure (unless some law other than CISPA already requires its provision to the government).

Citation needed.
CISPA's authors argue that the bill contains limitations on how the federal government can use and disclose information by permitting lawsuits against the government. But if a company sends information about a user that is not cyberthreat information, the government agency does not notify the user, only the company.

Why would the user need to be notified? Do you think you are notified whenever your data is moved? What the heck. Such additional expectations people put on to a new bill that are not existent anywhere else...
But many of our cybersecurity problems arise from software vulnerabilities and human failings, issues CISPA fails to address.

Uh, both software errors and human failings of course fall in to the cyber threat definition. Besides that, if EFF really things it doesn't, why would they bring it up? "I don't like anti-gun law because people are often killed by cancer". What on earth...

So apart from that EFF cites their own articles with their own articles and fail to mention even a single citation from the text, how is this a valid citation?

Most of their points are bogus, and it's obvious they don't understand IT or infosec terminology... On further inspection this is a website that makes a living by claiming everything is out to get you "drone test cites need stronger privacy protection" wtf, they are afraid of drones?
You'd think they'd already be able to do that without need for a bill to be passed, no?

If you believe that's what the bill is for, you are quite frankly very stupid and naive.

Think of it this way: Why the fuck do they need to pass a bill in order for companies to share how they had crimes committed against them? Are they not doing so already? In the case that they aren't, why aren't they?
Last edited by Hyde; Apr 27, 2013 at 08:09 PM.
Hoss.
ImmortalCow is arguing with the EFF by proxy.

10/10 for effort.

In all seriousness, the bill gives the government access to data that actually could compromise privacy. Ignore the legalese, focus on the actual boundaries that they (don't) put in place.
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Hey look more than two lines.
There was no special mention of the NSA as I recall

Citation needed please.

The definition is very strict, and nothing suggests any personal data would be transmitted at all. It does not allow "any" data to be transmitted, only threat data.

No. no. Citation please. Where do you see written in this bill that their definition is strict and that they won't abuse it ?

anonymization or proxy has legitimate use and is not an indicator, furthermore neither that or encryption threatens a specific system so does not fit the definition.

Citations ! Citations ! Citations !

Obviously abuse will be punished.

I don't see anything in the bill that says abuses will be punished, you're making shit up.

Most of their points are bogus, and it's obvious they don't understand IT or infosec terminology...

You don't know what you're talking about, citation pls.

Citation needed.

Citation please.
Last edited by deprav; Apr 28, 2013 at 04:12 AM.
Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
You'd think they'd already be able to do that without need for a bill to be passed, no?

If you believe that's what the bill is for, you are quite frankly very stupid and naive.

Think of it this way: Why the fuck do they need to pass a bill in order for companies to share how they had crimes committed against them? Are they not doing so already? In the case that they aren't, why aren't they?

That is what the bill says.

If you read it without considering conspiracy theories about the government trying to spy on your twitter, it's a very reasonable bill.

Let's stick to what the bill actually says.
Originally Posted by deprav View Post
Citation needed please.

A basic tenant of logic is that you can't ask someone to prove a negative. How am I going to prove the non-existence of a reference? Quote the entire bill?
Originally Posted by deprav View Post
No. no. Citation please. Where do you see written in this bill that their definition is strict and that they won't abuse it ?

Citation not needed, this is speculation that the government wouldn't try and sneak in a "true meaning" of a bill by producing a reasonable bill then attempting to abuse technicalities in a way that no court would uphold.
Originally Posted by deprav View Post
Citations ! Citations ! Citations !

Once again, do you want me to cite the entire bill to prove that encryption or proxies don't fit the definition? Show that they do, or they will be assumed not to.
Originally Posted by deprav View Post
I don't see anything in the bill that says abuses will be punished, you're making shit up.

The bill states what is allowed. Doing things that are not allowed is not allowed.
Furthermore high level courts (eg the supreme court) deal with more than just the exact letter of the law, they deal with what is 'morally right'. No citation is needed to approve my speculation that breaking or abusing the law will be punished. After all, USA pours billions of dollars in to their legal and police systems.
Originally Posted by deprav View Post
You don't know what you're talking about, citation pls.

As above, they think emails are a cyber threat and the same with encryption, proxies, etc.
Originally Posted by deprav View Post
Citation please.

You want me to cite my request for citation?



So far from the Anti-CISPA side we have heard:
"rhymes with SOPA therefore bad"
"everyone else says it is bad"
"OMG U R SO DUMB NOT TO SEE HOW BAD IT IS"
"if we let this bill in then they could let 100 in!"
"citation needed on your citation needed comment"
"derp derp illuminati-esque conspiracy theory"

As always, a pleasure to watch you flail conspiracy theories around and be unable to provide any logic to support your conclusions...
I can't see how this bill can work outside America's borders legaly. I can't imagine my ISP giving info to some government entity from Washington about things I'm doing to their sites, respecting their bills.
What can they do? They can hack it in secrecy, and we wouldn't be able to do shit to them anyway, bill or no bill...

As for poor Americans and their privacy... That is their internal matter.
Only thing I understood from that bill is that you will not be able to sue them for 'endangering' your privacy. Like our privacy isn't endangered already by 100+ other things?

Thing is, American government always make an ass of themselves every time they try to 'privatize' Internet for their personal needs. Too late for that now.

It's just sad how much in constant fear they are. Threat there! Threat over-here! There is a threat! Terrorists everywhere! We're on constant attack!
If you steal natural resources from other countries, why you are butt-hurt later when they fuck something up in your neighborhood?

Other sad thing is how when people are afraid, they are willing to give portions of their freedom and rights just to stay safe.
Really Gorman, you took my sarcastic impersonation of yourself that seriously ?

You need to take a deep breath, and take a global perspective on the subject.

No one talked about "conspiracy theory", you're just turning around and around in your head. People who can have more power and more control generally will try to get more power and more control, and more money.
It's not "conspiracy theory", it's the weakness of human mind, it's greed and moral values our world scale system encourage, it's how the world actually work : holding people's heads under water to float above the rest, stepping on people's liberty to have "more liberty for themselves"

So far, what we've heard from pro-CISPA (yourself) :
citations pls
citations plox
Politics are always trustworthy people that never act for their own profit or more govt control
Companies act for the general well-being of the world and never for their own profit
Critical thinking is conspiracy theory
people who think freedom of ze internet is in danger are dumbshits.
citations plosx