Original Post
English vs Scandinavian prisons
In Scandinavia crime isn’t thought of as you did something wrong you need to take the consequences of it unlike the Uk. In Scandinavia crime is thought of as a illness that needs to be cured or a virus that you attached through the environment you lived in which makes sense to me for example, My big brother,
before we moved to the Uk we lived in Poland and back in the day a lot of people and mostly younger boys thought that dressing in dark clothes,shirts that are to big for them, really long and massive shorts and snap backs that said fuck the police for example was cool and my big brother hanged around with people like that and he thought it was cool just like them, he thought he was all gangster (similarly to the road men in England) but then we flew to the Uk and he after a while he stopped dressing like that.
In prisons in the Uk you are locked up in a cell with just a bed and a place to shit in for 23 hours a day, when the criminals walk into the prison they won’t realise that they did something wrong they will just get pissed, angry and desperate to get out whatever way it might be, Recently I read about a prisoner in the Uk who cut his penis with a broken pen and blead to death... imagine how desperate and how destroyed you have to be to do something like that. Okay let’s look at the statistics in the Uk only 30% of people that get out of prisons don’t commit crimes again.
In prisons in Scandinavia you live in a community with your fellow prisoners, you live in a hotel like room with a flat tv,food and everything you need also there are no walls no nothing just a neighbourhood in which they have jobs and work for their food and for most of the things they have obviously though they can’t walk out the neighbourhood but they don’t build walls to block them of from the rest of the world like they’re the rejects they just tell them not too and trust them. In Scandinavia 80% of the prisoners that get out of prison don’t commit crime again.
What do you think about this? Is this a good idea?
Do you think the Uk and many other prison systems have to change?
How do you feel about this?
Do you think this relates to the amount of gangs in the uk?
before we moved to the Uk we lived in Poland and back in the day a lot of people and mostly younger boys thought that dressing in dark clothes,shirts that are to big for them, really long and massive shorts and snap backs that said fuck the police for example was cool and my big brother hanged around with people like that and he thought it was cool just like them, he thought he was all gangster (similarly to the road men in England) but then we flew to the Uk and he after a while he stopped dressing like that.
In prisons in the Uk you are locked up in a cell with just a bed and a place to shit in for 23 hours a day, when the criminals walk into the prison they won’t realise that they did something wrong they will just get pissed, angry and desperate to get out whatever way it might be, Recently I read about a prisoner in the Uk who cut his penis with a broken pen and blead to death... imagine how desperate and how destroyed you have to be to do something like that. Okay let’s look at the statistics in the Uk only 30% of people that get out of prisons don’t commit crimes again.
In prisons in Scandinavia you live in a community with your fellow prisoners, you live in a hotel like room with a flat tv,food and everything you need also there are no walls no nothing just a neighbourhood in which they have jobs and work for their food and for most of the things they have obviously though they can’t walk out the neighbourhood but they don’t build walls to block them of from the rest of the world like they’re the rejects they just tell them not too and trust them. In Scandinavia 80% of the prisoners that get out of prison don’t commit crime again.
What do you think about this? Is this a good idea?
Do you think the Uk and many other prison systems have to change?
How do you feel about this?
Do you think this relates to the amount of gangs in the uk?
So basically, you're talking about retributive vs rehabilitative justice.
Retributive justice has to do with the whole biblical 'eye for an eye' mindset. If you commit a crime, you are to be 'proportionally punished' for committing that crime. Assault someone, get a year or two, rape someone, get 5 years or so, kill someone 10yr+ or possible death sentence in some places. How exactly each of these countries with retributive systems figure out what constitutes 'proportional punishment' is beyond me.
The eye for an eye concept dates back to the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi, written over 3,500 years ago. It's an old concept fit for use in a savage, primitive world... Not a 21st century first world country.
As you say, rehabilitative justice has been proven to reduce recidivism rates wherever tested. It's definitely a good idea. That said, if someone raped and killed my sister, I wouldn't be forgiving and I'd want that person to suffer. Therein lies that problem with a rehabilitative system. While it may work out better for society over the long run (less crime), the victims and families of the victims will often feel that 'justice' hasn't been dealt (since justice to us still means what it meant over 3,500 years ago). It would require a fairly big shift in thinking for people to reform the idea of 'justice' into something less retributive in their minds.
On UK gangs, I think that problem is bigger that the type of justice system the UK has. There's a lotta sociocultural and socioeconomic shit going on there.
Retributive justice has to do with the whole biblical 'eye for an eye' mindset. If you commit a crime, you are to be 'proportionally punished' for committing that crime. Assault someone, get a year or two, rape someone, get 5 years or so, kill someone 10yr+ or possible death sentence in some places. How exactly each of these countries with retributive systems figure out what constitutes 'proportional punishment' is beyond me.
The eye for an eye concept dates back to the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi, written over 3,500 years ago. It's an old concept fit for use in a savage, primitive world... Not a 21st century first world country.
As you say, rehabilitative justice has been proven to reduce recidivism rates wherever tested. It's definitely a good idea. That said, if someone raped and killed my sister, I wouldn't be forgiving and I'd want that person to suffer. Therein lies that problem with a rehabilitative system. While it may work out better for society over the long run (less crime), the victims and families of the victims will often feel that 'justice' hasn't been dealt (since justice to us still means what it meant over 3,500 years ago). It would require a fairly big shift in thinking for people to reform the idea of 'justice' into something less retributive in their minds.
On UK gangs, I think that problem is bigger that the type of justice system the UK has. There's a lotta sociocultural and socioeconomic shit going on there.
Last edited by Ele; Jan 5, 2018 at 08:15 AM.
I think rehabilitiation makes more sense than "criminal go die". There HAS to be logical or scientific sense behind crimes. Even in cases of murder, something was behind it as bad as it can be. Fix the issue, don't get rid of it. Having people be locked up in terrible prisons like the U.S. has just makes things worse tbh.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I think both systems have their pros and cons, though statistics show that treating people more humanely and with respect causes a turnover of people not committing crimes again.
I think Ele put it well when he mentioned about how those not being punished (often victims friends/family) feel about the punishment put out. Your big brother got involved with stupid people with a stupid mindset, Scandinavian countries don't really have a big issue with that in my experience (I have lived in the UK and Sweden and speak English/Swedish).
I personally feel that the way you are treated should match the crime, if you are a rapist/murderer then you do not deserve to be treated so humanely. After all, you did something grossly inhumane.
On the other hand, for things like minor theft, fraudulent behaviour, DUI (some people will agree and disagree on various levels with my rough categorising) I believe a Scandinavian way of treating prisoners makes more sense. Our prisons in the UK are not so bad compared to most other countries, there are luxuries afford to the people for good behaviour etc so it is on a fine line between respectful/disrespectful treatment of prisoners.
How do I feel? Better be a citizen of Sweden by the time I get arrested ;)
I think it has nothing much to do the the gangs in the UK; that is an entirely different problem to do with the culture, environment and class people are born into. You don't have to have been to a prison to have the problems occur that result in gangs.
I think Ele put it well when he mentioned about how those not being punished (often victims friends/family) feel about the punishment put out. Your big brother got involved with stupid people with a stupid mindset, Scandinavian countries don't really have a big issue with that in my experience (I have lived in the UK and Sweden and speak English/Swedish).
I personally feel that the way you are treated should match the crime, if you are a rapist/murderer then you do not deserve to be treated so humanely. After all, you did something grossly inhumane.
On the other hand, for things like minor theft, fraudulent behaviour, DUI (some people will agree and disagree on various levels with my rough categorising) I believe a Scandinavian way of treating prisoners makes more sense. Our prisons in the UK are not so bad compared to most other countries, there are luxuries afford to the people for good behaviour etc so it is on a fine line between respectful/disrespectful treatment of prisoners.
How do I feel? Better be a citizen of Sweden by the time I get arrested ;)
I think it has nothing much to do the the gangs in the UK; that is an entirely different problem to do with the culture, environment and class people are born into. You don't have to have been to a prison to have the problems occur that result in gangs.
Prison should be, and generally is, a mixture of both rehabilitative and retributive justice.
I agree with souldevil that you should be treated not only a manner that reflects the severity of the crime you commit, but also how likely it is judged that you will reoffend. Rehabilitative care should be offered to all prisoners who will respond to the care, and likely not reoffend. No matter how severe the crime, if you show remorse, and show commitment to not reoffending, it would only make sense to offer rehabilitative care, and afford them the nice conditions that come with that.
It is likely cheaper to offer this care too. This would mean that most people would spend less time in prison, and they would not incur the costs associated with keeping them incarcerated.
Those who commit severe crimes, and show no remorse and will likely reoffend, and that rehabilitative care would not help, should be kept in cells and away from the rehab section of the prison population. Another purpose of prisons, after all, is to keep people who would otherwise be a risk to the public locked away.
The issue with this is how you can judge whether a person would benefit from rehab, or whether they are something of a lost cause. Someone could bluff their way out of this system, and commit a serious crime again. Likewise, someone who genuinely is remorseful could be sentenced to a life in prison.
It is interesting that you should mention gangs, because even if the individual is committed to living clean, if they were previously part of a gang, it is very difficult to escape that life. I don't think it's specifically an issue with the UK, and I don't think there is a lot a prison system can do to prevent this either. Prisons can only really benefit criminals who have been arrested. With the cuts police forces face in the UK as well, they do not have the resources to sufficiently combat gang crime. I think a combination of a bolstered police force, a better prison system geared towards rehabilitation and also social work to prevent people from becoming involved in gangs, and helping people escape gangs, would help combat gang crime massively.
I agree with souldevil that you should be treated not only a manner that reflects the severity of the crime you commit, but also how likely it is judged that you will reoffend. Rehabilitative care should be offered to all prisoners who will respond to the care, and likely not reoffend. No matter how severe the crime, if you show remorse, and show commitment to not reoffending, it would only make sense to offer rehabilitative care, and afford them the nice conditions that come with that.
It is likely cheaper to offer this care too. This would mean that most people would spend less time in prison, and they would not incur the costs associated with keeping them incarcerated.
Those who commit severe crimes, and show no remorse and will likely reoffend, and that rehabilitative care would not help, should be kept in cells and away from the rehab section of the prison population. Another purpose of prisons, after all, is to keep people who would otherwise be a risk to the public locked away.
The issue with this is how you can judge whether a person would benefit from rehab, or whether they are something of a lost cause. Someone could bluff their way out of this system, and commit a serious crime again. Likewise, someone who genuinely is remorseful could be sentenced to a life in prison.
It is interesting that you should mention gangs, because even if the individual is committed to living clean, if they were previously part of a gang, it is very difficult to escape that life. I don't think it's specifically an issue with the UK, and I don't think there is a lot a prison system can do to prevent this either. Prisons can only really benefit criminals who have been arrested. With the cuts police forces face in the UK as well, they do not have the resources to sufficiently combat gang crime. I think a combination of a bolstered police force, a better prison system geared towards rehabilitation and also social work to prevent people from becoming involved in gangs, and helping people escape gangs, would help combat gang crime massively.
AHHHHHH IT BURNS
