Please, explain me what exactly shovel means: only when you at first move hands down and then up, lifting opponent up, repulsing with legs help, or it can be done with arms straight?

http://forum.toribash.com/attachment...6&d=1209050758 - Shovel or not?

I don't know if anyone used the word before but I don't know anyone who used it before MANtrain (he says he had never heard it before too). So he probably invented the term. That is his definition:

Shovel = lower both arms --> raise both arms.
Doesn't matter what you do with your legs.

The replay is just common lifting.

In aikido I use this shoveling alot, everyone makes such a big thing like "OMG he's shoveling" but so what its a tactic in order to get your opponent up and lifted out of the ring.

I just think people who lose spot a seemingly uncounterable move, give it a name and use that specific tactic against you by saying ZOMG hes "shoveling or whatever"

Really gets to me

Shovels aren't uncounterable. But it's annoying because I have to stick to counters and can't enjoy the match.

Shoveling also shows that players don't care about playing, only winning (I stick to shovelcounters not because of winning, I stick to them to make shovelers lose, because that's what they deserve).

Using it on unexperienced players results in cheap wins very often. It just takes the skill out of the game.

Totally agree with you...

well said.

I think the key is repetition. When I was a blue-brown belt I held a sambo server for ~30 fights using a relaxed-style shovel opening (I didn't understand the term either at the time.) That was flexible enough to beat the more simplistic shovel counters, and lift out just about everything else. The reason that I think (looking back) that that was unsportsmanlike, was not anything specific to the move itself, but the repetition of the same move over and over, along with the fact that I was using it to continually win.

I think the healthiest solution is to change up your move style significantly from one fight to the next, and be willing to experiment with different ideas. Besides being more fun to play and watch, you will learn more, enjoy your fights more, and people will appreciate your being a considerate opponent.

We often make aikido/sambo with dojo 450 on [Hack] server, to make shovels senseless.

RAWR invented big dojo aikido And apparently I invented the expression shoveling. Go me!

MANtrain winz!

and well said, both NutHug and mMm

A Move is a move, Find a way to get around it and stop whining. >:3