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Apr 13, 2012 Old
The Dream Argument
In light of the "What is real?" thread, I've decided to share an argument that gained some traction when Descartes wrote his Meditations on First Philosophy:
The Dream Argument

He who dreams of drinking wine may weep when morning comes; he who dreams of weeping may in the morning go off to hunt. While he is dreaming he does not know it is a dream, and in his dream he may even try to interpret a dream. Only after he wakes does he know it was a dream.
~Rene Descartes

As brought into question above, how are we supposed to know that we aren't constantly dreaming?

How are we supposed to be sure that our reality now isn't as false as it is when we are dreaming?

We only find out that we are dreaming because of our awakening. Does this mean that we too will awake from this reality?
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Interesting proposal, however I think I'd have to disagree. In a dream state the environment reacts differently than real life - most objects you can *pass* through. It is based on this that reality-checks play on to get you to realise it's a dream, the same reality checks don't work in our currently environmental, that's actually the point of them. My next point is that of food, if we were constantly dreaming we'd need to eat and drink and sleep, but everything is dream food so even when we've eaten a lot of food in-dream you would expect to still feel hungry (assuming that some artificial method was being used to feed you) so yeah. I think if we were constantly dreaming, it'd fall apart because our mind couldn't (and can't) accept the warped reality of a dream-state.
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Some people can accomplish said "reality checks" by natural talent, however, for most people it requires a good deal of practice. Practice to actually remember to do the reality checks while in your dream, that is.

We can't exactly be sure our realtiy isn't 'false,' but we can atleast usually tell if it is a dream or not. That narrows it down ;).
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Originally Posted by sireal View Post
Interesting proposal, however I think I'd have to disagree. In a dream state the environment reacts differently than real life - most objects you can *pass* through. It is based on this that reality-checks play on to get you to realise it's a dream, the same reality checks don't work in our currently environmental, that's actually the point of them. My next point is that of food, if we were constantly dreaming we'd need to eat and drink and sleep, but everything is dream food so even when we've eaten a lot of food in-dream you would expect to still feel hungry (assuming that some artificial method was being used to feed you) so yeah. I think if we were constantly dreaming, it'd fall apart because our mind couldn't (and can't) accept the warped reality of a dream-state.

How does the need for food necessitate us to be awake? Possibly the need for food could be a rule set in place by whatever controls our constant dream.

Originally Posted by nodarkness View Post
Very interesting In how the act is formed.

What?

Originally Posted by PieGod View Post
Some people can accomplish said "reality checks" by natural talent, however, for most people it requires a good deal of practice. Practice to actually remember to do the reality checks while in your dream, that is.

We can't exactly be sure our realtiy isn't 'false,' but we can atleast usually tell if it is a dream or not. That narrows it down ;).

What is a "reality check" and how does this allow us to know if this is a constant dream or not?

I am a realist, and I have some good objections to the dream argument, but I will share them later.
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Originally Posted by RayA75 View Post
How does the need for food necessitate us to be awake? Possibly the need for food could be a rule set in place by whatever controls our constant dream.

What is a "reality check" and how does this allow us to know if this is a constant dream or not?

To your first point, I was saying you would feel hungry (I don't know about you but when I'm dreaming and I'm hungry I can feel it and wake up.) even if you had eaten in the dream, which isn't really true to reality is it? =P

A reality check is something you perform while you're awake that has two significantly different results: one in the dream world and one while you're awake. When you recognise the different result in the dream world, you can begin lucid dreaming (recognising you are in a dream and controlling it.). If you repeat it enough while you're awake you should carry this habit to the dream world, and thus 'wake up' inside the dream earlier than say, waiting for a natural realitycheck. Here's an example of a reality check: whenever you see a door stop for a second and try and put two fingers of your left hand through your right hand and think "AM I DREAMING" in your head. If you keep this action up for a week or two, it should carry across to your dreams, so you can start lucid dreaming. The reason this works is because in a dream world you can pass through most objects - your fingers would go through your hand, you would recognise this and realise you are dreaming.

Originally Posted by PieGod View Post
Some people can accomplish said "reality checks" by natural talent, however, for most people it requires a good deal of practice. Practice to actually remember to do the reality checks while in your dream, that is.

That's not exactly true, all a reality check is is forcing an occurrence of something that could only happen in a dream - these occurrences (such as tripping and falling through the floor) happen anyway, given enough time.
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There really isn't any way to prove this either way, everything I say is going to just be speculation and personal opinion, but you probably already knew that.

The surest sign to me that we aren't living a large dream, based on the knowledge and definition of the term dream that we know, is that we are able to question whether we are in a dream at all without waking up. If this truly were a dream in the traditional sense of dreaming and we knew it was, wouldn't we be able to control it? Or shake ourselves out of it? I know I can when I am dreaming.

Of course, any argument I make could very easily and logically be debunked by simply stating that perhaps the rules of this big dream are different than the traditional rules of dreaming. But then, would it be a dream? Or just something similar to a dream that behaves in like ways, but still different? I say the latter, if anything more than just simple life.

There are things that would make sense for this in fact BEING a dream as well, like the mystery of life and how it originated. There doesn't need to be an explanation if this is a dream, dreams don't work that way. Your mind simply wouldn't create something for that. Or maybe it would. I've never been inside of any of your minds, so I wouldn't know.

The final thing that proves to me the most that this isn't a dream is the idea of conflicting opinions. If this were a dream, you would be the only 'real' mind, correct? Or is it a shared dream? I'll go on the assumption that it is, in fact, a traditional dream not shared by everyone. If this were YOUR dream, couldn't you simply make anyone you didn't agree with disappear? Or change them to make them agree, even if it was subconsciously?

That and I can pinch myself and not wake up. So there's that.
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub; For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
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This article does a pretty decent job of defining a reality check and giving a few examples:


http://lucid.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_check


Originally Posted by sireal View Post
That's not exactly true, all a reality check is is forcing an occurrence of something that could only happen in a dream - these occurrences (such as tripping and falling through the floor) happen anyway, given enough time.

Strange things happen all the time in dreams, and they are generally accepted as normal while you are dreaming. If you trip and fall through the floor, your thought process may be something like "Man, that was close," then you brush it off. You would only realize how strange it is after the fact. This is why it usually requires some practice, to most people, to actually recognize when something strange has happened.
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Originally Posted by PieGod View Post
This article does a pretty decent job of defining a reality check and giving a few examples:


http://lucid.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_check




Strange things happen all the time in dreams, and they are generally accepted as normal while you are dreaming. If you trip and fall through the floor, your thought process may be something like "Man, that was close," then you brush it off. You would only realize how strange it is after the fact. This is why it usually requires some practice, to most people, to actually recognize when something strange has happened.
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Well, why does the people who poses the ability to realize wether it is a dream or not doesn't in the 'real life'? From what I know, they don't, so I for one, says that this is not a dream but that is only an opinion from me, and there is ALOT of possibilities of what is actually going on.
also, there is a thing where you can make yourself dream, and you know it is a dream, called Lucid Dream... If its already stated sorry, cause i didn't read all those words up there, i am rather what you people call... Lazy.
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Originally Posted by PieGod View Post
This article does a pretty decent job of defining a reality check and giving a few examples:


http://lucid.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_check




Strange things happen all the time in dreams, and they are generally accepted as normal while you are dreaming. If you trip and fall through the floor, your thought process may be something like "Man, that was close," then you brush it off. You would only realize how strange it is after the fact. This is why it usually requires some practice, to most people, to actually recognize when something strange has happened.
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Well, I am speaking from experience when I said that, and I haven't practiced any reality checks. Something just feels wrong, then you notice it and bam, lucid dreaming. Usually doesn't last long after that, I wake up, but still. That's just what I have experienced.
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