Original Post
Argument over what discussions should look like.
Basically this is where the discussion stands right now:
My own contribution would be that the specificity of your argument is an important enough part of it to be criticised as a stand alone from your original conclusion without the criticism becoming irrelevant to the legitimacy of that conclusion. If you word a correct thought incorrectly in your argument then that thought might as well have been incorrect. Debates are as much about conveying your viewpoint as picking the right side and if you can't do that accurately then you don't automatically deserve to win the debate. (I know discussions and debates differ but I don't think that devalues my point enough to matter).
Anyone have any thoughts?
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Originally Posted by cowmeatI think this is the problem with discussion forums. When you argue for logics/arguments sake you make simply retarded statements that have nothing to do with the real world (read every immortal pigs post). Sure in some idea world where only theory is applied, some of the arguments pig has used might work or be realistic. But in the real world, everything he has said thus far has been utterly wrong. I don't know if pig is playing the devils advocate or if he's just dumb, I can't tell but all the arguments he has made have either been based on semantics or some abstract philosophical ideas (and usually filled with logical fallacies)
To me this kind of discussion is banal, sure it gives more to talk about, but the quality of the discussion is simply worse. Especially when the other person is grounded in reality and the other isnt.logic doesn't apply to the real world
My arguments are 100% logical and grounded in reality, making sweeping statements like "they are logical but have nothing to do with the real world" or "semantics and philosophy are bad" or "I don't like it, thus it is bad" are not productive at all.
Originally Posted by cow
Originally Posted by pigIf you want to discuss, then discuss. If you don't want to, then don't. How hard is that?
Discussion with a brick wall isn't very fruitful. With statements like "my arguments are 100% logical and based in reality" I highly doubt you would ever listen to anyone else than yourself; or someone who agrees with you. Ive yet to see a post here that isn't basically "Immortalpig is wrong and here's why" followed by more insane rebuttals that are "100% logical and based in reality"
I do like discussion as much as the next guy, that is why I'm here, but you are effectively ruining this discussion. It's like you're vomiting all over the board and when people get tired of shoveling vomit back and forth, you declare yourself a victor.
Originally Posted by Pig
Maybe you care too much about "winning" mate, you are not required to reply to my posts, you are not required to try and force people to agree with you. It's like you have some compulsion to be right and win every thread, who cares if the discussion isn't fruitful or someone doesn't agree with you?
You know how much I care when someone doesn't agree with me? Not at all - in fact I prefer that people disagree because it furthers the discussion.
My own contribution would be that the specificity of your argument is an important enough part of it to be criticised as a stand alone from your original conclusion without the criticism becoming irrelevant to the legitimacy of that conclusion. If you word a correct thought incorrectly in your argument then that thought might as well have been incorrect. Debates are as much about conveying your viewpoint as picking the right side and if you can't do that accurately then you don't automatically deserve to win the debate. (I know discussions and debates differ but I don't think that devalues my point enough to matter).
Anyone have any thoughts?
Last edited by Zelda; Sep 20, 2015 at 04:35 PM.
Reason: discussion continued on other thread.
Good morning sweet princess
Yes, if I say "the grass is purple" then that is incorrect, even if I really mean "the grass is green". I don't think anyone will say otherwise. Posts do not exist in vacuums, it's certainly valid to discuss the post.
No one "deserves" to win or "doesn't deserve to win", discussion threads are NOT debates, and no one "wins", can we stop saying that? This sub hasn't even been debate since you have been a member Zelda lol...
Regardless, discussion threads are not productive in any way other than for their own sake.
Maybe you care too much about "winning" mate, you are not required to reply to my posts, you are not required to try and force people to agree with you. It's like you have some compulsion to be right and win every thread, who cares if the discussion isn't fruitful or someone doesn't agree with you?
You know how much I care when someone doesn't agree with me? Not at all - in fact I prefer that people disagree because it furthers the discussion. One of the rules of this sub is that if no one disagrees then the thread is closed, a rule that has been aggressively enforced in the past to the point that if there's no disagreement within a handful of posts the thread is locked.
No one "deserves" to win or "doesn't deserve to win", discussion threads are NOT debates, and no one "wins", can we stop saying that? This sub hasn't even been debate since you have been a member Zelda lol...
Regardless, discussion threads are not productive in any way other than for their own sake.
Originally Posted by cowmeat
Discussion with a brick wall isn't very fruitful. With statements like "my arguments are 100% logical and based in reality" I highly doubt you would ever listen to anyone else than yourself; or someone who agrees with you. Ive yet to see a post here that isn't basically "Immortalpig is wrong and here's why" followed by more insane rebuttals that are "100% logical and based in reality"
I do like discussion as much as the next guy, that is why I'm here, but you are effectively ruining this discussion. It's like you're vomiting all over the board and when people get tired of shoveling vomit back and forth, you declare yourself a victor.
Maybe you care too much about "winning" mate, you are not required to reply to my posts, you are not required to try and force people to agree with you. It's like you have some compulsion to be right and win every thread, who cares if the discussion isn't fruitful or someone doesn't agree with you?
You know how much I care when someone doesn't agree with me? Not at all - in fact I prefer that people disagree because it furthers the discussion. One of the rules of this sub is that if no one disagrees then the thread is closed, a rule that has been aggressively enforced in the past to the point that if there's no disagreement within a handful of posts the thread is locked.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Cow is stupid and Pig is trolling every thread he posts in. There's nothing wrong with the current format of discussion, but it does cater to both types of people. I agree with Pig on the topic that circlejerk threads have no reason to exist, there are some topics ("why do I have to go to skoo' =[") which don't really have more than one reasonable side to begin with (these should be shut down before they start).
Other discussion formats were proposed in the past, but the problem with those is that they require a lot of work. A debate format could be introduced as a sub-board of discussion to see how it fares, though.
Other discussion formats were proposed in the past, but the problem with those is that they require a lot of work. A debate format could be introduced as a sub-board of discussion to see how it fares, though.
Last edited by ynvaser; Sep 20, 2015 at 04:50 PM.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
discussion threads are NOT debates, and no one "wins", can we stop saying that? This sub hasn't even been debate since you have been a member Zelda lol...
I thought I was clear about knowing about the distinction between a debate and discussion. However, the majority of those who frequent the discussion forum often treat it like a debate. Cowmeat's comment about winning and losing demonstrates this attitude (I probably had the same attitude that there was no difference between debates and discussions at some point in my relationship with the sub as well) and I believe it is not a rare attitude for people to have. This is why I treat it thusly.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
One of the rules of this sub is that if no one disagrees then the thread is closed, a rule that has been aggressively enforced in the past to the point that if there's no disagreement within a handful of posts the thread is locked.
Come on, be reasonable, I tend to move it to Off-topic where Moonshake complains and then closes it there.
Good morning sweet princess
Originally Posted by ynvaser
(these should be shut down before they start).
Nah I follow those rules because they exist, but there's nothing wrong with leaving circle jerk threads open.
They will die out quickly anyway, so it really doesn't matter. Aggressively pruning them is a bad idea IMO, just let them die naturally, and if they don't then obviously there was a bit more to discuss than originally thought.
Originally Posted by ynvaser
Other discussion formats were proposed in the past, but the problem with those is that they require a lot of work. A debate format could be introduced as a sub-board of discussion to see how it fares, though.
Well there's always the "just let threads run their course without any intervention" format, which is less work.
Originally Posted by Zelda
I thought I was clear about knowing about the distinction between a debate and discussion. However, the majority of those who frequent the discussion forum often treat it like a debate. Cowmeat's comment about winning and losing demonstrates this attitude (I probably had the same attitude that there was no difference between debates and discussions at some point in my relationship with the sub as well) and I believe it is not a rare attitude for people to have. This is why I treat it thusly.
Well if you say things like "Debates are ..." or "... in your argument ..." then I think you propagate the idea that people win or lose in this sub, instead of people just discussing with no outcome.
"If you word a correct thought incorrectly", etc. So I would personally steer away from anything that implies this sub contains debates or arguments, because people will get the wrong impression.
Originally Posted by Zelda
Come on, be reasonable, I tend to move it to Off-topic where Moonshake complains and then closes it there.
Either way.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
